I opened a ticket with Kel-Tec concerning the use of +P and +P+ 9mm ammo with the Sub 2000. See the attached response from Kel-Tec. They do not recommend any use of either +P or +P+ ammo with the Sub 2000 rifles. View attachment 32774

So, umm, what is your question?

 

This is exactly what most of us have said all along.

 

IIRC, from a sub2k barrel, a standard 9mm round is already traveling at or near 357mag velocity.

 

Interesting info. The ONLY reason I would want to know is that there is a variety of ammo for the 9mm. I would not want to have to worry every time I shot a 9mm as to whether it was standard pressure or +p or +p+. After all, some of us want to use this as a SHTF gun. Sort of like having a 357 so you don't have to worry about availability of 38 vs 357.

 

Specifications on good ammo is readily available. Don't shoot reloads unless you or a person known and trusted by you has loaded. Don't shoot surplus ammo of unknown origin. In short if you do not know exactly what the power level of the ammo is, this really applies to all guns, don't use it.
As to SHTF........all bets are off. Your gonna do what you have to do. You have addressed the one major wart the sub has, strength. Due to the materials used and the folding feature it is not a robust design. It fills it's role of handy folding PCC beautifully. If the ability to use high pressure loads is more desirable than the folding feature there are better PCC to fill that role.

 

My apologies, that obvious conclusion didn't appear obvious to you from your posts. There are plenty of stronger polymer guns. All one has to do is LOOK at the sub. The hinge area and catch are plastic. If the gun was aluminum it would be substantially stronger given good engineering. Of course it would be heavier and more expensive. The fact that the gun is hinged AND plastic limits the strength potential. For long term use under adverse conditions there are far better options. Accept the weapon for what it is. A light compact little carbine that is able to be carried discreetly. It is a compromise weapon, better than a handgun but not a battle rifle by ANY stretch.

 

You still have not addressed the pressure load from a +p and +p+ and what is has to do with the plastic. Again the pressure spike is in the chamber/bbl. And all parts are steel in the ejection process with the exception of the rear button/stop.

Not denying there are stronger polymer guns, and I don't understand why you are persistent in the statement. Maybe I should just take your word regarding this, but not in my nature.

 

See the folding XAR: https://www.fddefense.com/rifles/xar/
This folding AR platform will cost $2100 - $2500 when it is released for sale later this Summer. The cost of engineering and building a rifle that can fold and use high-pressure ammo is high.

 

See the folding XAR: https://www.fddefense.com/rifles/xar/
This folding AR platform will cost $2100 - $2500 when it is released for sale later this Summer. The cost of engineering and building a rifle that can fold and use high-pressure ammo is high.

Exactly......the little sub is an inexpensive, plastic design with modest expectations. You want something a bit more capable it's going to cost more money.

 

I don't know if hotter loads like +P+ would significantly shorten or damage my sub2k but it's a blowback carbine so the buffer weight and spring has to be chosen to work with a wide range of ammo, and KT has to cater to light/range loads. Hotter ammo in a lightly sprung/weighted blowback is also at a higher risk of OOB (out of battery).

I'm certain if you ask Ford if it's OK to add a supercharger to your Mustang they'll say no, so if you blow your motor it's on you. But people do it all the time without issue, but at the cost of a shorter life.

If you plan to run hotter ammo I'd recommend a heavier buffer and charge handle.

There's quite a few firearm makers that will approve +P but not +P+ as there's no SAAMI specs for +P+ I'm aware of. There's also surplus submachine gun ammo loaded HOT for UZIs that's labeled +P+.

 

I'm certain if you ask Ford if it's OK to add a supercharger to your Mustang they'll say no, so if you blow your motor it's on you. But people do it all the time without issue, but at the cost of a shorter life.

Perfect example. You take an engine that is capable of lasting well over 250000 miles and wring the life out of it in less than 30000 for kicks......it's a matter of priorities.

 

ford will break down no matter what you do or dont do to it....

 

Agreed!

 

It's a plastic gun, I wouldn't load anything besides standard 9mm with someone else's hands...lol.

 

KelTec doesn't recommend +P ammo because their guns have a lifetime warranty. +P ammo beats up your gun. That gets expensive replacing all those guns and they probably don't want to because everyone is all "hurrr muh hot loads". I wouldn't think however that the Sub 2000 couldn't handle a 9mm+p load considering they make the Sub 2000 in a 40S&W variant, and that is already considered a high pressure round.

 

In the current (2015) SAAMI Pressure Guide Z299.3, the 9mm Luger transducer pressure spec is 35,000 psi. The 9mm Luger +P pressure spec is 38,500.

Yet, there is no longer a spec for a 9mm Luger proof round. It is listed as obsolete, and the only 9mm Luger proof round is 9mm Luger +P, which is set at 52,000 minimum average to 55,500 maximum average.

So Kel-Tec is proofing the Sub 2000 with the 9mm Luger +P proof round, regardless of their recommended service ammunition.

FYI

 

I just bought a sub2k 2nd gen and the only ammo available was Speer gold.dot 115 and 124 gr (9mm). This is my first firearm and not sure if these are +p rounds but I do see "high performance" on the package. If so would the recoil buffer from mcarbo help keep the gun together using these cartridges?

 

Gold dots come in standard pressure and +P, +P should be prominently displayed on the box if it is.

 

Thank you.

 

When I inquired I was told not to make a habit of extra pressure ammo. I put in the extra heavy bolt weight just for dung and giggles and haven't fired any 9mm +P or ++P at all. But it's in there should I ever see the need. I think multiple normal pressure rounds in the torso will be more effective than one slightly more powerful round in the same target area. If one wants to fire one round then look for effect it might make more sense, it's also not suggested. One shoots until the threat is neutralized or until out of ammo, if one fires at all or even displays the gun.

FWIW, I haven't found any downside to having that bolt weight in there (other than cost). It still fires and cycles the action even with my butterfly fart competition loads (minimum PF). IF KT made one that was even heavier I'd try that too.

 

What ammunition does Keltec recommend for self-defense?
Yepp, no studdering here, The subposed question is what ammunition runs best in your 9mm SUB 2000, for the purpose of self-defense? Whether it be a mean old hog chasing me or a complete brain dead very well-armed burglar or worse. They both live and breathe and it would mean that if they are a threat to my life or those around me. then it would be us or them, bottom line.
There are lots of 9 mm rounds being marketed as paper circle killers, deer killers, or game birds and if they are a plus P or not. Just what seems to be the problem here? Say it like it is for cripes sake.

 

I have never heard of ANY firearm manufacturer recommending specific ammo for self defense that we can purchase. There are LE agencies who test and suggest ammo that fits their specified test parameters. But for non-LEO types their parameters and ours aren't the same. I doubt that we'll ever need to shoot through auto glass or auto bodies for instance.

When asked this question I suggest that folks check with their local police to find out what they use and then use the same. Why? It's difficult for some lawyer who wants to sue the crap out of you to claim you used some sort of super ammo when your police are also using it. Another source of ammo would be buying overrun ammo commissioned by Federal agencies. You need to be on your toes to find it. But when found it can be had at a savings compared to off the shelf ammo. Again, it would be hard to be sued for super ammo when the FBI or IRS (for instance) commissioned it. Mil' spec' ammo is not what you want.

Another reason manufacturers don't suggest ammo is they don't know how your firearm will be configured. My HD gun wears a suppressor and if quiet was a goal I'd be using 148grain bullets in 9mm since they are inherently subsonic.

Some things I would look for if striking out on your own and not using what your LEOs use... Ammo designed for SD. FMJ need not apply unless you want significant overpenetration and additional lawsuits from people downrange that one ventilates. HPs are strongly suggested because they have a much better chance of staying in the target unless it's paper. They also do what's desired by dumping all or most of their energy in the target. SD ammo won't be inexpensive but after firing a bunch of it to make sure your firearm likes it 100% (zero malfunctions!) you're not going to fire much of it. After deciding on a load I'd look on youtube to see if anyone has tested it. I try to stick with known brands, for example, Federal, CCI, Speer, and there are more. I'd definitely stay away from off brands or experimental super ammo that may or may not work as stated by the manufacturer. Remember there are always lawyers just waiting for their next BMW payment.