winchester black talon, carry ammo?

Discussion in 'P-3AT' started by roland45, Jun 15, 2008.

  1. roland45

    roland45 New Member

    18
    May 16, 2008
    I was digging through some totes this weekend and ran across some original
    black box 95 gr black talons in .380.
    now the question, to carry or not to carry?
    Roland
     
  2. virtual-rj

    virtual-rj New Member

    Jul 22, 2007
    Houston, TX

  3. Brewster6514

    Brewster6514 Active Member

    Jun 10, 2006
    yup, and if you are looking to sell it some are paying high dollar for it. although i bought a box of 20 for $5.00 at a show(.40s&w)  :cool:
    winchester supreme SXT is what i carry in my P3.
     
  4. Potlicquor

    Potlicquor New Member

    261
    Mar 29, 2007
    I agree with the suggestions for you to keep and/or sell it and purchase some of the newer manufactured equivalent rounds.
     
  5. wheelguy

    wheelguy New Member

    May 4, 2007
    Lots of rumors about the "old" black talon being much hotter than the current version. If it wouldn't hurt the P3AT, it sure would be nice to get some hard data on that.

    If possible, shoot one or two and measure the velocity 10 feet from the muzzle. I don't think we have any velocity measurements from the original black talon yet. Of course, you couldn't sell it as a complete box on ebay if you did that. But it would make a great addition to this forum's body of information on various rounds.
     
  6. alamo

    alamo New Member

    Sep 12, 2004
    I wouldn't carry it, ever. If you ever had to shoot someone in self-defense, you'd just be giving an overzealous prosecutor or more likely, a lawyer for the "victim" in a civil suit, some "ammunition" to use against you. It was pulled off the market as I recall due to its name and undeserved reputation as a "cop killer" bullet. A good lawyer could have a field day with it.

    We all know that's BS but who knows what a jury that knows nothing about these sort of things would think? There's just as good ammo out there without the baggage of the Black Talon name/reputation.
     
  7. Sangueffusor

    Sangueffusor New Member

    May 13, 2007
    Indiana
    I think any half-decent defense attorney could point out that many law enforcement officers use and trust this particular ammunition in their line of work, so why should civilians be wary of carrying it?

    I believe I'll be ordering some.
     
  8. Gatordave

    Gatordave Banned

    23
    Jun 13, 2008
    I would agree with Sange, any attorney that would get you convicted because of a bullet brand is worthless. My Black "talons" don't even say talon on the box, or on the cartridge. It says Ranger controlled expansion, sxt. Law enforcement ammunition. I assure you they are real 1980's black talons just in a different box.
    So even if there was an issue with a prosectutor asking about your Black talons, you could always say hey I read Rangers were Safe, I saw a box marked Ranger Law enforcement ammo at a garage sale.
    "black Talon, never heard of it, these are rangers" End of story.
    Not that I think it would ever come to that point, some gun writer I think Ayoob brought that up one time as a liablity and it has been repeated over and over. I doubt anyone has ever been legitimatelyprocecuted for a bullet brand, but I guess stranger things have happened.
    Last of my worries. It's a good bullet. I would carry it.
     
  9. pocketgun

    pocketgun New Member

    May 4, 2005
    The original Black Talons were based on 1980's technology (like the Hydra Shock and SilverTip) and even when they were on the market didn't do all that well in the testing of the time. In essence, they were a gimmick: a jacket perforated such that it formed sharp little points when expanded (oooh, scary) and they were an evil black color. In short, they were created to seem effective, but nowhere have the sharp little points ever been shown to make a difference in a gunfight, and the black color didn't have any functional properties (like teflon, as often misreported). The PC backlash was enough to make them pull the product from manufacture, and create a new version that would attract less attention.

    The SXT that replaced it is a more modern bullet, which presumably incorporates everything Winchester learned since the Black Talon was invented to make it better. The SXT and Ranger SXT (restricted to law enforcement, but available to anyone in reality, yet another silly Winchester gimmick), don't have the sharp points or black coloration.

    So you want to carry the Black Talons? I will give you a few good reasons why it is a bad idea:
    -It is rare. You could sell it for far more money than it is worth to a collector, or someone deluded into thinking that the fact it was banned somehow makes it too effective to be legal.
    -I won't carry ammo I haven't function tested in my pistol. I want a minimum of 25 rounds through my P-3AT, and 50 rounds is even better. Do you plan to function test it? If so, do you have enough BT to test it, then carry what is left? If you do, do you plan to shoot some of it once in a while to keep the feel? You will run out pretty quickly unless you have a stockpile.
    -It is 20 plus years old. Age does nothing good to ammo, as a general rule. I admit it is probably still good, but why bet your life on it?

    Do yourself a favor, and sell it to some misguided thug at a gun show who will brag about it to his friends, and take the $$ you took him for and use it to buy some CorBon DPX or some nice Buffalo Bore GDHPs that will be far more effective.

    Ayoob sells ammo for a living. The day that stuff got pulled from the market, it was inevitable he would have to advocate something else that his employers/clients were currently selling. It is basically the same reason he strongly disavows handloads for self-defense, in spite of his inability to produce an actual case where they made a impact. I watched a guy named Double Naught Spy tear him a new one over on The High Road (IIRC) over this, and he even cited cases as evidence that upon careful review had nothing to do with handloads, as he claimed. Opinions, even those from well-known gunwriters, are not a substitute for facts in a debate. Opinions labeled as such are fine, so long as the reasoning is there for all to follow.

    As for the civil liability aspect of the BTs, I would hope that everyone here has some sort of home/renter's policy with a fat personal liability coverage built into it. Let their lawyers deal with it for you, at their expense, whatever you carry. If this stuff actually gave you an advantage, I would be all for it, but I don't see it.
     
  10. adamsesq

    adamsesq New Member

    Dec 25, 2006
    PG and RJ +100

    Good enough for me. Next thread?

    -Scott
     
  11. joje

    joje New Member

    213
    Nov 1, 2007
    exellent post, pocket gun!
     
  12. roland45

    roland45 New Member

    18
    May 16, 2008
    Great post PG,
    This is what my thoughts were on this thread, I just wanted a place where I could bounce the idea around, before making up my mind about the possibility of carrying it in my p3at.
    As for selling the boxes to "some misguided thug at a gun show " and taking the money to buy something newer / better, I don’t do gun shows, or sell ammo to thugs. I would consider selling to a trusted friend, or a collector.
    Roland
     
  13. pocketgun

    pocketgun New Member

    May 4, 2005
    Thanks for the compliments guys.

    Roland, if you haven't been to the gun show, I highly recommend going sometime. Think of it as a whole bunch of small gunshops packing up their stuff and exhibiting it all in one place. It is a great place to buy reloading components so you don't have to pay expensive shipping. It is also a great place to find Black Talons, BTW, or to sell them.

    As for the thugs, the reality is that they are rather smitten with the infamy of the Black Talon, and will be the people most interested in paying a small fortune for them. Thugs have habit of shooting one another far more often than they do shooting at the law-abiding. Even if I am the one he has the right side of his slide lined up on (somebody "get" this, OK), I would rather it be the BTs than the Golden Sabers or the DPXs he might have bought otherwise. Something to think about...