What's  the difference in ammo...

Discussion in 'P-3AT' started by dgray64, Mar 10, 2008.

  1. dgray64

    dgray64 New Member

    117
    Feb 27, 2008
    I took the advice of one of the links here and bought some CCI Blazer ammo in aluminum cheap. I've been shooting Federal and some Blazer CCI brass in my P-3AT with negligible recoil (comfortable to shoot). The Brass CCI was 95 gr round nose FMJ. Well, I received my aluminum CCI today and took some out to shoot it since I had never shot aluminum cartridges before. Wow!! These are HOT! Same 95 gr round nose FMJ, but they bite my hand! The only difference I can see is that the aluminum rounds are Berdan primed. Of course with that type of primer, they may be made in Russia or somewhere that makes military rounds using hotter powder. This thing feels more like my FEG PA-63 in a 9x18 mm size.

    I know this is a long post, but there was such a difference in recoil that I thought one of you might know. I feel like pulling the bullets and plugging in some peel-back HPs like the new Winchester Ranger Lawman have in them and make them lethal. Happy days!

    Dave ;)
     
  2. msrdiver1

    msrdiver1 New Member

    114
    Jan 20, 2008
    I have not shot aluminum cased rounds in my Kel-Tecs. Too many people have warned against it as the aluminum may, somehow, damage the extractor. How is beyond me. Then there is an individual in the SUB2000 posts that has shot 100's of 9mm aluminum rounds in his KT gun. Why he does, I don't know. Both the manual and websight strictly discourage its use and the warranty maybe voided.

    Blaser brass is on sale at natchezess.com

    Safe shooting.
     

  3. lagerbrewer

    lagerbrewer New Member

    174
    Dec 20, 2007
    Re: What's  the difference in ammo...

    If I'm wrong show me where, but I have not seen any mention of this in the manual or KT web. There was only a P3AT review someone posted where they reported having extraction problems. I too bought some of the Blazer the OP mentions and it does shoot like crap in my gun, but I bought it for plinking/practice only and expected some problems. I did however research it before I bought and found nothing forbidding its use.
     
  4. RandyP

    RandyP New Member

    606
    Dec 23, 2007
    Re: What's  the difference in ammo...

    I know I've read cautions about both the Wolf "STEEL" and other make Aluminum cased ammo, but I've had no problem with both of the CCI products or Wolf Gold for that matter in any of my handguns. 380, 9mm or 45ACP.
     
  5. Hutch01

    Hutch01 New Member

    Sep 17, 2005
    My answer for the CCI aluminum stuff is that if it works OK and you like it, why not. However, I would not say the same about Wolf or any of the other Russian made metal cased stuff. The reason is as follows:

    - Casings expand inside the chamber when fired due to pressure. Brass is soft and it contracts immediate after it expands allowing it to be yanked from the chamber quite readily. The bi metal Russian stuff will not contract after it expands. Therefore, the extractor must work harder to pull it from the chamber. American made guns/extractors are designed for brass. Russian made guns/extractors are made to fire the bi metal stuff. That's why the extractors on Russian made firearms are quite a bit beefier than American made ones. That's precisely why you'll see the comment - "Commie ammo for Commie guns". There is a lot of truth to that statement because of the above explanation.

    - Aluminum is somewhere between brass and bi metal in terms of contraction and softness. So, ya pay ya nickel and take ya chances with aluminum. I do not believe it would damage your extractor.

    As for pulling bullets and replacing them with JHP? No, I would not recommend that for a multitude of reasons, not the least of which is that modifying commercially made ammo to be used in Self Defense is risky business legally in some jurisdictions.

    There is plenty of good quality ammo on the market that is suitable for SD. Use whatever works for practice, but buy good quality stuff for SD and don't screw around with home brew modifications to commercial ammo.
     
  6. theheater905

    theheater905 New Member

    236
    Feb 8, 2008
    Re: What's  the difference in ammo...

    Hutch,
    Good information and explanantion. I dont think you can beat American made ammunition and if aluminum cases were so good all the major brands would use them. My guess is its cheaper to manufacturer and maybe more profitable. Foreign stuff, I'd avoid it even if its less expensive. I had also read that the foreign ammunition uses a harder primer due to use in machine pistols. It doesnt affect 380 but more 9MM, sometimes the firing pin on handguns wont ignite these primers.
     
  7. KelTekCajun

    KelTekCajun New Member

    May 11, 2006
    Acadiana
    Re: What's  the difference in ammo...

    If I'm wrong show me where, but I have not seen any mention of this in the manual or KT web. There was only a P3AT review someone posted where they reported having extraction problems. I too bought some of the Blazer the OP mentions and it does shoot like crap in my gun, but I bought it for plinking/practice only and expected some problems. I did however research it before I bought and found nothing forbidding its use.[/quote]

    http://www.kel-tec-cnc.com/sub2000.html

    Look towards the bottom half of the page where it is written in bold red letters, "CAUTION!"

    And mentioned a second time here: http://www.kel-tec-cnc.com/news.html
     
  8. lagerbrewer

    lagerbrewer New Member

    174
    Dec 20, 2007
    Re: What's  the difference in ammo...

    Sub 2000 though right? Different than the P3AT? I don't know anything about the sub2000.
     
  9. Hutch01

    Hutch01 New Member

    Sep 17, 2005
    Yes, most of the Russian made stuff is the same as their MILITARY production and it does have HARDER primers. I don't think the reason for the harder primers is for machine gun use, but it's because their firing pins are "free floating" and a harder primer makes a loaded gun safer.

    It's not just pistols that are a problem. Let's use an SKS or an AK as an example. It is somewhat dangerous to shoot American made ammo in them because of the "free floating" firing pin striking the soft primers at the wrong time. That can easily create a "slam fire" on one of those rifles.

    I have an SKS with a modified trigger which includes a slightly weaker hammer spring. With some of the latest Wolf Military Classic ammo I've had several failures due to the hard primers and the hammer not striking hard enough. On examination the primer appeared to be dented enough to have fired, but it didn't and it has taken up to three attempts to get the cartridge to fire.

    Sorry, we're off the thread topic, but I did want to reply to your comment about hard primers.
     
  10. dgray64

    dgray64 New Member

    117
    Feb 27, 2008
    Thanks for the info. I still think it felt stronger but I wrote to CCI and got this response:

    David: the two products should be very close to the same as they both have a velocity of 945 fps and Maximum pressure of 21,500 psi. No matter Boxer or Berdan primer, the pressure limit remains the same, as does the velocity spec.

    Gold Dot # 23606, is the suggested load for "carry" as it has a 90 gr HP bullet and 990 fps.

    Shoot Straight!
    Coy Getman
    2299 Snake River Ave.
    Lewiston, ID 83501
    Sr. Technical Coordinator
    (800) 627-3640 ext 5351

    I think I'll try some of the Gold Dot that he recommends. The aluminum cases, by the way extract well with no unnecessary swelling or strain on the pistol parts.

    Dave ;)