What you probably know, but forgot...limpwristing.

Discussion in 'P-3AT' started by engineer88, Mar 29, 2008.

  1. engineer88

    engineer88 New Member

    376
    Nov 26, 2007
    I was thinking the other day of why people limpwrist these small guns and how. What I got to realize is there are two reasons people have issues and they are easily cured.

    Reason 1 - Instead of completely straightening the arm at both joints, the elbow should have a slight bend and the wrist should as well. Making the front of the hand tilt down to create alignment and lock out the wrist. Here is a somewhat crude representation of what I am shooting at:

    [​IMG]

    Reason 2 - You need 1.5 to 2 full pads of your fingertips on the grip surface. You learn rather quickly how to angle you fingers upwards to get this purchase on the grip. Which I think is what many people believe is a break in on the gun, but I think it is actually a break in for the operator. ;)

    [​IMG]

    I know, I know. My bitmap drawing skillz are sooper L337. Don't hate. I just wanted to pass this on to maybe help some noobs out there. I also thought the P3AT was unreliable at first and then I learned my grip and positioning just needed a little work. I bet most of you learned to do this by pure habit and forgot that you did. I hope this helps someone out there.

    P.S. The red ovals are supposed to represent fingers and show that you hold them almost at a slight angle on the grip. I hope that is apparent in my pitiful drawings...
     
  2. engineer88

    engineer88 New Member

    376
    Nov 26, 2007

  3. zeke

    zeke New Member

    Dec 20, 2005
    Re: What you probably know, but forgot...limpwrist

    Number one is probably the biggest reason. I know when I started I had some problems, I tried the different grip methods, Including TPP push pull method but still had problems. I finally figured out that I was locking my elbows instead of my wrist and while squeezing the heck out of the grip, the famed death grip. This grip was working fairly well for me though with rapid fire, although it would cause me to shake while trying slow aimed firing.

    While practicing for the KTOG Postal match (my groups were really bad from the shaking) I loosened my grip and bent my elbows to try to improve my groups. As this was slow deliberate aimed fire I wasn't concerned with FTE or FTF problems. After a box of rounds practicing with the bent elbows and looser grip it dawned on me that I hadn't had any FTE or FTF problems. I realized I didn't need a death grip on the gun.

    You nailed it in the first drawing (as bad as it is) ;D bending slightly at the elbows is the key. This causes you to rotate your wrist a little more towards the target, locking your wrist. Volia, just what you wanted to do in the first place.

    Bend your elbows, rotate wrist downward towards the target and your wrist will naturally lock.
     
  4. rcmodel

    rcmodel New Member

    Feb 6, 2005
    Eastern Kansas
    Re: What you probably know, but forgot...limpwrist

    Careful there!

    That's starting to look like the old "Duelist Stance" of 100 years ago.
    That has since proven to be a very poor shooting tecnique!

    Top Bullseye shooter hold with a stiff arm, straight elbow, and a locked wrest.
    http://www.piersystem.com/go/doc/443/21205/
    The shooting arm must be extended fully with elbow and wrist locked in position (but not with too much tension).

    Locking your wrist can be done at any time without bending your elbow, or any other gymnastics or contortions.

    Just suppose you are going to punch somebodys lights out.
    You automatacally lock your wrest, because if you didn't, you would probably break or sprain it when the punch landed!

    Try it.
    See you can even do it setting at the keyboard.

    rcmodel
     
  5. fatman

    fatman New Member

    Apr 6, 2005
    Re: What you probably know, but forgot...limpwrist

    I have found that some new shooters find it hard to understand what we mean by a locked wrist.  I have found it useful to have them hold an unloaded gun in a firing grip with the muzzle a couple of inches from a hard surface like a door frame then shift their weight forward to press the muzzle against the hard surface.  This will force them to lock their wrist and can also be used to illustrate the weight forward "nose over toes" combat pistol stance.
     
  6. doubloon

    doubloon New Member

    Jan 5, 2008
    Houston-ish, TX
    Re: What you probably know, but forgot...limpwrist

    +1 .. On a PF9 I'm lucky to get 1.75 fingers on the grip, on the P3AT 1.5 is a "goal". I find if I provide a good foundation (backstop) for the gun the number of fingers I have in the front is secondary as long as I'm not letting it float in my hand. I'm quite confident I can avoid FTF/FTE altogether as long as the web of my hand is snug against the gun and my wrist is locked.
     
  7. Brewster6514

    Brewster6514 Active Member

    Jun 10, 2006
  8. Dreadnought

    Dreadnought New Member

    485
    Jul 23, 2007
    Re: What you probably know, but forgot...limpwrist

    Looks good to me...well, the technique any way :eek: :p ;)
     
  9. gatorhugger

    gatorhugger Banned

    236
    Jan 19, 2008
    Re: What you probably know, but forgot...limpwrist

    not flaming at all, but I did manage to get out testing that "other gun".

    You can't make it limpwrist, I shot it gangster, upside down, limped out to the extreme, it always went bang.
     
  10. Brewster6514

    Brewster6514 Active Member

    Jun 10, 2006
    Re: What you probably know, but forgot...limpwrist

    i know the feeling. i tried to LW my p3 the last time i went to the range and i could NOT get it to fail.
     
  11. engineer88

    engineer88 New Member

    376
    Nov 26, 2007
    Re: What you probably know, but forgot...limpwrist

    Not looking to start an argument, but I don't believe that I should shoot a P3AT like a full size pistol. 90-95% of my practice is one handed (which is why the dood in my pic only has one arm, not because of my lack in drawing skillz, LOL). It is my personal belief that you kind of should shoot pocket pistols duelist style. Why? The same reason they did shoot black powder pistols in this manner: the lack of range and accuracy at range.

    I feel that this pistol is a last resort, short distance life saver. I figure the 21' rule definitely applies to it. So therefore I do not even put the second hand on it usually since I am not really trying to target shoot with it, just maintain proficiency for self defense. In a self defense situation my other hand may be occupied. I love that the P3AT shoots so well with one hand! I actually practice with my full size pistols one handed as well, but it is so natural with the smaller pistols. Think about it, you may be using the other hand on a door handle, holding keys, pushing a child or S.O. behind you, pointing a flashlight grabbing the cell phone, or God forbid warding off an attack.

    There are many other scenarios, but now you know why I believe in not locking the elbow, especially for self defense. Honestly part of it is a throw back to my martial arts training, but it all applies in my opinion. That is just my .02 anyhow. :)
     
  12. doubloon

    doubloon New Member

    Jan 5, 2008
    Houston-ish, TX
    Re: What you probably know, but forgot...limpwrist

    I don't believe anyone in a black powder pistol duel was ever worried about getting off a second shot much less putting a second shot anywhere near the first, those things were generally one shot only. Many pistol duels ended in both parties being missed even before it was in vogue to miss each other intentionally. And I don't believe there was anything in the rules that said you couldn't hold the gun with both hands.

    While anyone might be able to reasonably get a first shot on target one handed, it seems the general consensus among professional combat, self defense and competition shooters is two hands will help get the second shot on target quicker and quicker matters.

    I'm not saying anyone shouldn't practice one handed. Just saying anyone looking for advice on how to practice should probably consult a professional.
     
  13. engineer88

    engineer88 New Member

    376
    Nov 26, 2007
    Re: What you probably know, but forgot...limpwrist

    Due to the longer trigger reset on the P3AT you can train to fire multiple shots just as fast one handed. Now with a Glock, Sig, Beretta or other that is not true (much shorter travel, SA follow up shots, etc.). But I am definitely not a professional, just relaying my own experiences. For me there is a very small difference between one and two hand follow up shots. Of course I am 6'5" 375lbs. and I lift weights 5 days a week. So that may have something to do with me not noticing a huge difference between one and two handed shots. :-/

    Does anyone else notice or not notice a huge difference in speed of follow up shots when the second hand is in play?
     
  14. fatman

    fatman New Member

    Apr 6, 2005
    Re: What you probably know, but forgot...limpwrist

    I strongly encourage my family members to shoot not more than 50% of their practice shots with two hands and the rest with only one hand. For those who follow my advice to carry a second gun available to the weak hand I suggest that their one hand shooting be evenly divided between the strong hand and weak hand.

    Each of my family members has a surefire flashlight and since most deadly force encounters occur in bad light we train a lot to shoot with the flashlight in one hand and the pistol in the other.
     
  15. engineer88

    engineer88 New Member

    376
    Nov 26, 2007
    Re: What you probably know, but forgot...limpwrist

    That is smart. I will be real honest I do not practice off hand more then a mag or two here and there. :-[

    I really, really should take your advice and do that more.
     
  16. Checker4Tix

    Checker4Tix Well-Known Member

    Aug 6, 2007
    Re: What you probably know, but forgot...limpwrist

    Good video. That's the way I grip now. My strong hand index finger and my week hand thumb both point toward the target as I am aiming. It really makes a difference, as little Gidget's success shows.