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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
I know some of you have done a lot of selling of firearms and shipping of them, or even are dealers. So let me ask what you think I should do.

Three weeks ago I sold a revolver to an out of State buyer. She paid by Postal Money Order.

I took the gun to my local FFL and paid him to do the paper work and ship it to her FFL.

My FFL mailed it though the US Mail. No Delivery Conformation. No insurance. No Tracking number and so on.

The "receiving" FFL claims they have never received it.

I feel I am on the "hook" to the buyer. I also feel my FFL was negligent for not putting insurance on it or using a deliver conformation.

My FFL has told me he is looking into it, but has stated that he did mail it. So he did his job.

Well I am concerned that a handgun I "had" is now floating around. I have the paper work to show I gave it to my FFL.

Do I report this to the Police? Do I call ATF and ask them to get involved?

The more I think about it, the more I believe as there was no way to track it etc., someone at the sending or receiving post office took it.

Any advise?
 

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10 bucks says your local FFL still has it on a shelf...won't be the first time I've heard of that.
He'll rush to ship it out now that you've raised the question. I hope.
 

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I would call your FFL and ask him if he wants to file the "stolen firearm" report with the police, or if you should. I would imagine it's his a55 on the line since he would have logged it into, then out of, his bound book as he shipped it. If the firearm was last in his posession, and that is proveable by your receipt and also in his bound book, I can't imagine the ATF would be terribly happy with him if the firearm is now unaccounted for with no tracking information.

I'm not an FFL, and know nothing of the rules they must follow, but I would guess that shipping a firearm without tracking information would be a big no-no. I just can't imagine FFL's would be granted the priviledge of shipping via the USPS but not be required to take some responsibility for their shipments.

At the very minimum, your FFL appears to be an idiot. Make him pay for the lost gun, then find a new FFL.
 

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Did you pay the FFL a transfer fee ? It's my understanding that when you gave the firearm to the FFL it went on his books just as if you had sold it to him. I would think it them becomes his responsibility to get it to the receiving FFL, if it is still on his books then it becomes his liability because you have already transferred the firearm.

Now, as far as between you and the buyer, that becomes a tough one. My thoughts are that you are morally responsible to get the gun to her FFL or refund her money. Provided, of course, that the receiving FFL didn't abscond with the untracked, unmarked package that your FFL supposedly sent to him. Whose to say that it wasn't dropped off on a door step at the receiving FFL and picked up by a customer on his way our or even a dishonest employee (not that that would ever happen, right ?). However, I would lay that blame on YOUR FFL for not adequatly ensuring delivery to the receiving FFL.

I hate to say it but based on what you have outlined. I believe I would refund the buyers money to them and then go after your FFL for reimbursement. After all, he is the one who received the gun and had the responsibility to deliver it. If he failed to adequately ensure delivery then he should pay for it. The gun should be logged into his books so you can demand it back from him or its monetary value. If he refuses, then I'm sure the BATF would be interested in knowing what the final disposition of that firearm is ................................ Hmmmmmmm

Dan R
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Well to me anyone who ships a firearm with out insuring it and having a way to prove delivery is an idiot.

The fee I paid was to cover the transfer and the shipping.
 

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Yes, unthinkable for an FFL to ship without tracking number, even if he just opened his shop yesterday.
 

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Well to me anyone who ships a firearm with out insuring it and having a way to prove delivery is an idiot..
Could not agree more.
 

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This!

10 bucks says your local FFL still has it on a shelf...won't be the first time I've heard of that.
He'll rush to ship it out now that you've raised the question. I hope.
We've seen that more than a time or two.
 

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1. Google UCC risk of loss, educate yourself on the basics.
2. Don't waste time. Call a local attorney explain the situation ask him to evaluate it and write you a letter to the ffl with CC to buyer and local ATf field agent.

Don't expect to ever be welcome in that shop again.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
1. Google UCC risk of loss, educate yourself on the basics.
2. Don't waste time. Call a local attorney explain the situation ask him to evaluate it and write you a letter to the ffl with CC to buyer and local ATf field agent.

Don't expect to ever be welcome in that shop again.
Under the Uniform Commercial Code (UCC), there are four risk of loss rules, in order of application:

Agreement - the agreement of the parties controls
Breach - the breaching party is liable for any uninsured loss even though breach is unrelated to the problem. Hence, if the breach is the time of delivery, and the goods show up broken, then the breaching rule applies risk of loss on the seller.
Delivery by common carrier other than by seller.
Risk of loss shifts from seller to buyer at the time that seller completes its delivery obligations
If it is a destination contract (FOB (buyer's city)), then risk of loss is on the seller.
If it is a delivery contract (standard, or FOB (seller's city)), then the risk of loss is on the buyer.
If the seller is a merchant, then the risk of loss shifts to the buyer upon buyer's "receipt" of the goods. If the buyer never takes possession, then the seller still has the risk of loss.
As for using that shop again ( Not being welcomed back by him), or going in there.... Well unless he makes things right without being forced to, I would not want to deal with him anyway. He is a "nice" guy, but nice or not... In my eyes he missed up.

I totally understand I can tell the Buyer, "Sorry, but I delivered it as agreed (the agreement stated the gun would be shipped though my FFL for delivery to their FFL) to my FFL to ship to your FFL and it was "Lost" after that so you need to talk to them and the carrier?... But to me as a "responsible" seller, it is on me, and I need to find a way to make it right.

I'm sure as Buyers, all of us would expect the seller to set things right. We would understand, and work with the seller, but I believe "we" would want the seller to fix it.
 

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I took the gun to my local FFL and paid him to do the paper work and ship it to her FFL.

My FFL mailed it though the US Mail. No Delivery Conformation. No insurance. No Tracking number and so on.

The "receiving" FFL claims they have never received it.
Did you contact the receiving FFL yourself, is this something the shipping FFL said, or is that something that was simply relayed to you by the buyer? The shipping FFL stating that the receiving FFL said they never received it is one thing... The Buyer simply saying her FFL didn't receive it is another (unless you know and trust the buyer).

And... this is figuring the shipping FFL didn't forget to ship it, as mentioned earlier.

When you round up all the facts, make sure all the facts are 1st hand statements and your paper trail is accurate, then get the lawyer written letter that Eric_in_Nola mentioned.
 

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I understand you're need to make yourself square with the buyer. But you really need to put pressure on your FFL, he has a large portion of the responsibility in the eyes of the law and ATF.

Ask to see his copy of Form 1508...he had to use it to send it via USPS. There is a place of the form for a postmark. That's his proof he actually sent it out. http://about.usps.com/forms/ps1508.pdf

I still say he never shipped it, he would be a fool to ship it without covering his butt with insurance and some kind of conformation.
 

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As for using that shop again ( Not being welcomed back by him), or going in there.... Well unless he makes things right without being forced to, I would not want to deal with him anyway. He is a "nice" guy, but nice or not... In my eyes he missed up.
I have a cousin who is a "nice" guy too. He's extremely personable, pleasant, fun, and entertaining. He's also about 70% deadbeat and he uses his natural skills with his personality to scam the rest of the family. He's engaged in some questionable practices in the past, mostly aided by his "nice" demeanor. I suspect he has unreported income but I've never had any actual evidence thereof.

He's just this side of an actual Confidence Man and he taught me not to trust "nice" or my "gut feelings" about a person. I trust what they do.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
 

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You can't be any more responsible than giving you arm to a federally licensed dealer to transfer to another dealer. If you want to refund the money you are free to do so but I bet your attorney will tell you that this is a textbook UCC case.

Also, what would put more pressure on the ffl than a letter from your attorney putting the ffl on notice that you are an informed party.

PS. Add local postal inspector to the CC on the letter. That way you have reported a possible crime to the appropriate authority. Missing guns in the mail is the kind if stuff that postal inspectors take interest in.
 

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I totally understand I can tell the Buyer, "Sorry, but I delivered it as agreed (the agreement stated the gun would be shipped though my FFL for delivery to their FFL) to my FFL to ship to your FFL and it was "Lost" after that so you need to talk to them and the carrier?
If you pulled a stunt like that on me, as a buyer, I can't even tell you how hard I would come down on you. If you can't provide proof that the gun was actually shipped, and I could not care less about proof that you delivered it to your FFL, but until you can provide proof that the gun made it into the mail destined for my FFL - correct shipping address, etc. - they you would be on the hook IMHO. I would never, ever buy a gun from somebody that didn't ship it insured and trackable. I would get that in writing before purchasing. But even without that down in writing, since this is a firearm we are talking about, the expectation would still be there. And I imagine the ATF has that same "expectation". Basically, I would do everything imaginable to put you and your FFL into really hot water with the ATF. And any other law enforcement agency I could get involved.

And 224lps, I hope you realize that I am not directing this at YOU, because I know you are a nice guy. But generically, in any firearms buyer/seller relationship, the seller just has to get the gun to it's destination or provide 100% proof that they did everything on their end. Not being able to provide proof of mailing is a bad position for the seller to be in. As far as I'm concerned, as a buyer, both the seller and the sellers FFL are effectively one person, for purposes of proving the item shipped, and shipped to the correct address.

If I were in this predicament as the seller, I would immediately refund all of the buyers money (unless they agreed to a different path), and then go after my FFL with a vengence. Including involving the ATF to potentially yank his license and make his business life miserable - if he were "uncooperative".
 

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Your FFL sounds like a complete imbecile. hard to believe they are even in the firearm busines.

Having said that I agree with haertig about asking the FFL if you or they should report it.

As far as the buyer their deal is with you and you alone so, unfortunately, they get their money or the gun. They had no deal with your FFL, that's between you and the FFL.

Good luck man this sucks. But I believe we have to take the high ground as far as our own responsibility first. Many people would just shine the buyer on saying to them "hey it's not my fault". Personally I hate people like that.
 

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This is just one reason (of several) that I won't sell a firearm online without the express understanding that the receiving FFL on the buyer's end will accept shipment directly from an individual (me) so I don't have to go through a middle man. I put it in every ad I post for such, and I consider it a deal-breaker. I'll gladly provide the receiving FFL a copy of my DL, etc., but I want to do all the shipping/insuring/tracking myself. YMMV.
 

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HardShell said:
This is just one reason (of several) that I won't sell a firearm online without the express understanding that the receiving FFL on the buyer's end will accept shipment directly from an individual (me) so I don't have to go through a middle man. I put it in every ad I post for such, and I consider it a deal-breaker. I'll gladly provide the receiving FFL a copy of my DL, etc., but I want to do all the shipping/insuring/tracking myself. YMMV.
Agreed.

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