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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Just got back from the range -

I had a several "fail to eject" issues in the first 50 shots - the spent brass stayed in the chamber - (IMO one of the most serious problems a SD gun can have). While trying to figure out why I noticed that the spent brass is flat on one side. I thought maybe I had stepped on them - they were that deformed - so I shot some and chased the empties down - and sure enough one side is caved in. Never seen this before. I just put in a new recoil rod and springs - if that makes any difference.

Any idea what will cause this?

I leave for vacation in a few days and if I can't get this solved my P-3AT will not get to ski the slopes of Colorado!
 

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z71,
I can't answer, but someone here will come along and give you good advice.

I would like to know how many rds you've put thru it prior to this problem, a little history on your P3.

Good luck, Ned.
 

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My P-3AT casings look about like that and so do many others I've read of.   It's probably more common than not from what I understand.

The casing is getting mashed in by the ejection port I believe.  Maybe rcmodel can explain exactly how.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Counting the 125 I shot today - 600 rounds

Always cleaned after shot

100 rounds  Federal AE 95 gr fmj 3 jams - most brass deformed

25 rounds 90 gr Black Hills JHP - no jams - deformed brass - some not only bent in but a crease on the edge like it was mared by the  blade of a screwdriver lightly tapped with a hammer.  
 

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You speak of two items, but only one of the is really a problem.

The fail to eject is fixable,
- with checking the extractor bolt being first on the list.
- Next is to check that the chamber is smooth. If not, some have polished it with some 600 grit and slideing the paper in and out by hand, DON'T hit the end of the chanber where the case mouth seats.
- A little relief on the hood ( the top of the barrel just above the case) can let the case out of the chamber more easily, also.
- It is possible that the extractor doesn't reach the case rim properly. I had one that was fixed by careful hand fitting of the extractor to the case, but I had to field strip the gun and remove the extractor spring to fit it.


I cured the flattened case mouths (not a problem and normal) by removeing the corner of the frame (left over from being a .32) (that is the spot just under the extractor with the slide open) that the case hits on the way out.
And smoothing the sharp edges on the frame and slide that the case hits on the way out.


JerryO
 

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+1 to what JerryO has told you.

Loose Frankenbolt seems to be the #1 cause of new gun blues with the SG guns.

The flattened case mouths are pretty normal, and are caused by the case doing a 180 out of the ejection port after it hits the ejector.
If you look closely, you will see some brass tracks on the outside of the slide where the cases are hitting it mouth first as they come out of the ejection port.


rcmodel
 

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If you hadn’t already shot so many rounds without failures I might recommend a Barrel-Hood-Mod to eliminate the bent brass. But that problem should have occurred earlier. Did you take your 2mm Allen wrench from your range bag to check the buttonhead. You were using finger extension to prevent limpwristing, right? These are the problem I find most often. Below is my failure to extract kit if you have a need :)



Wilson – who’s reducing the price on his kit from $100 to $99.95 for Christmas ;D
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
My button head is tight (loc-tite) - I did check it after each failure. First I tried to tighten it - would not budge - the second and third failure I first tried to loosen the button head - I figured if it was loose it should be easy to unscrew - but it would not budge either way.

I do not think the button head is my problem.

I can see where the extractor grabbed the brass - there is a slight scratch on the rim - this also just happens to the the exact same side as the dent - which seems normal.  If I was holding the gun like I was about to shoot it both scratch and dent are on the right side of the brass.

I have polished the inside of the chamber before - not perfect - but fairly smooth - I have shot 375 rounds since then and I can see some scratches that were not there before -

No finger extension on gun - I have small hands - holding the gun has never been an issue.

I do not think the FTE issue is being caused by limpwristing - the case stays inside the chamber - the extractor has pulled away from the brass - maybe I have a weak extractor spring? The extracor itself still looks sharp.
 

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z71bill said:
I just put in a new recoil rod and springs - if that makes any difference.
Since this started just after you changed the recoil rod and springs, did you check to see if the ejector in still properly in its place in the frame? They fall out easily and are easy to overlook. The extracted round would behave differently with the ejector missing. Whenever I take my guns apart, I usually have a few spare parts and they go into my parts box. I have lots of parts now. :D
 

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z71bill said:
I can see where the extractor grabbed the brass - there is a slight scratch on the rim - this also just happens to the the exact same side as the dent - which seems normal.  If I was holding the gun like I was about to shoot it both scratch and dent are on the right side of the brass.

It sounds like you understand the P3AT as well as most anyone.

I don't remember that you said that you have tried a new extractor. Early in the production of 2nd generation P3AT's several guns had problems like yours. Most were eventualy fixed by replaceing the extractors. Some found brands of ammo that worked with the old extractor.

I didn't want to wait, so I hand fit my extractor.
I had checked mine several times and thought the extractor had a good fit. It even gripped the case rims well enough to leave a mark.

When I finally took the slide off and removed the extractor, I found that the extractor sat on two points in the slide. With the extractor touching both places, it should grab the rim to the bottom of the groove. Instead it barely caught the rim, at least with the case even with the bottom of slide rib that rubs on the next round in the clip (ie full down as when the slide is slideing back). I dremeled and filed on the extractor until it just reached the bottom of the extractor groove as the extractor sat flat on the 2 points in the slide.


The result was the little triangle made by the extractor (before the fitting) became a line (similar to a scratch) that run right to the bottom of the extractor groove.

Previously, the extractor was pivoting on the front point in the slide. This took little force and would let the extractor bounce off the case rim.

Now, the extractor pivots on the rear point in the slide (or not at all, I think) and grabs the rim until the case is kicked out by the ejector. This did cause the case to hit the frame under the extractor and get pinched between the extractor and the frame. A little grinding on the shiny spot on the frame and it couldn't pinch the case rim any longer.


JerryO
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
No left over parts - I always talk the assembly pin and the ejector and place them in the plastic cap from my spray can of REM oil.

Called Kel-Tec - they are sending me a new extractor.

Thanks for all the help - now I just need to decide if I take it with me on vacation - since I know its not 100% - looks like the PM9 may need to fill in as primary - and the P-3AT become a BUG.
 

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You have received some excellent advice!

  I hope they are also sending you a new spring and the new, NON-STRIP hardened screw.

  When you replace the extractor, (drop the hammer onto the firing pin to hold it in place.) check for carbon deposits under the extractor and under/on the bottom of the spring.

  Sometimes these will lift the extractor or weaken the spring pressure enough to cause this problem.

Packer.
 

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If circumstances permit you to carry a PM9 I think that is always a better choice as a primary gun. The best role for an AT in the winter is as a BUG (available to both the weak and strong hand IMO.) :)
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
The problems they're multiplying! I am losing control!

I had a failure to extract problem (12/18/06) talked with KT - they sent me a new extractor - extrator spring - button head - recoil springs - recoil rod -  great service!

I replaced the parts   - used lock-tite on the threads -

My old extractor looked ok - maybe a little bit flat but not bad.

Went to the range today - after 50 shots and getting -   failure after failure after failure to extract the spent case - (AE 95 gr FMJ) I switched over to my PM9 and shot 200 rounds with out one issue of any kind - then I gave the M&P 40 a chance to chew 50 Winchester Ranger 165 gr JHP's and 100 Winchester 165 gr flat nose FMJ - without any problems of any kind - unless you count the guy next to me complaining about my gun being too loud. He ask what kind of canon I was shooting - I think his issue was I was shooting 2 quick shots to the chest - one to the head - two to the chest one to the head - in maybe 10 secconds - he was shooting really slow - like cartridges cost $5.00 each  - maybe once every 30 seconds.

Called KT - they said they would send me another extractor - there is a small chance the new one I installed was bad. If this does not solve the defect - I will need to send it in to the factory.  

I am almost at the point where I will take a crumpled - wrinkled - soggy - torn $100 bill to solve (sell)  this problem. I love the size of the P-3AT  - like the way its shoots (when it does) - but the reliability is really starting to concern me.  99% of self-defense is mental - the other 1/2 is physical!

I need a gun that I feel is going to go bang - bang - bang - bang - bang - bang- bang - bang - not bang - jam - bang - jam - bang - jam!

I sure hope the new parts solve this problem.
 

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Does your slide have this type groove opposite the extractor? If it does you will need to send it back to KT to be replaced.

 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
zeke

I have some of the same marks on my slide -

But they do not look this deep.

How can I tell the difference between normal wear - and a problem?

I should have the "replacement" - replacement parts from Kel-Tec by Monday - if I still have failures I will send it off to Florida - Kel-Tec has earned another shot to keep my business - just because they try so hard to solve the issues.

In the back of my mind - I am starting to think there may be a Smith & Wesson 340PD or 360 PD (12 ounce scandium alloy 357 magnum) in my future. 99.999999% reliability plus the power of a 357 mag may be the final solution. I may need TWO inner tube grips to soften the recoil!
 

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The machining marks that cause FTE are marked by the red arrow and the yellow box. There shouldn't be any kind of uneven machining where the red arrow is pointing to. Even a few .001's will start to cause problems occassionally. The wear down in the yellow box just makes it get worse the more that you shoot it.

Mine workded fairly well for 250 rounds with just an occasional FTE using UMC, then it became worse, so I tried some different ammo, WWB and independence wouldn't work at all, Federal and Magtech worked well, then I started having the same problems with federal after 150 rounds or so. I did lots of tinkering and measuring between two guns to figure out what was causing the problem.

I couldn't get even 1 WWB to eject correctly like the slide was. I filled the area with epoxy, sanded it to the same as the rest of the slide in that area. I tried 5 WWB that all ejected, until the epoxy came out.

With the slide off play around with a casing to see how well the ejector holds it. As long as the case in parallel with the breech face it should hold it tightly, if it moves slightly to where it gets into the machined area the red arrow points to it isn't held tightly any more and will not extract correctly.

The extractor is a more common problem, but both will cause the same effect.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
The view -

You don't need to remove the button head screw / extractor -

Just remove the slide - lay it with the extractor & extractor spring facing up.

I played around with the slide - using an empty cartridge. Most of the time the case stays straight - when placed in the slide & is held by the extractor. It will go cock-eyed - but its hard to know - if this is my problem.

Does anyone with a reliable P-3AT also have wear marks on the slide (like in the pic)

My extractor also has a little play in it - I can move it horizontally - I can also see a wear mark on the extrator - caused by the extractor spring - I shot about 100 rounds after replacing the extractor and extractor spring.
 
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