Updated: (new) Remington Golden Saber report +more

Discussion in 'P-3AT' started by KelTex78, Mar 14, 2009.

  1. KelTex78

    KelTex78 New Member

    459
    Jan 10, 2009
    I have followed up on this with a new test this afternoon! I have posted the results over in the 'Other Guns' forum since it involves more than .380!
    Here is the link to the new test!
    http://www.ktog.org/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1237663894


    I was happy to find a local shop with Golden Saber's in stock yesterday, so I bought a box. It is a 102 grain JHP that has always been mentioned as being a very good round. This morning, I filled up my jugs with water, loaded up my pistol, and went out to find out how this round handled the maurauding milk jug threat.

    It turned out to be a very dissapointing shot. The bullet penetrated the fourth 1 gallon jug, but on retrieving it, I found it to be completely unexpanded. Only a single leaf of the jacket had folded back. One positive observation was that the nose of the next round in the chamber was not deformed by the 'smiley' effect.

    [​IMG]

    For this kind of expansion, you could shoot bulk JHP much more cheaply. I am curious to see if this expands better when fired from a handgun with a slightly longer barrel, but until I acquire a Bersa Thunder .380, I will probably put these away and stick with my Magtech First Defense I reviewed here:
    http://www.ktog.org/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1236131645
     
  2. Rubb

    Rubb New Member

    Jun 19, 2006
    Re: Remington Golden Saber report with picture

    Wow, that's not GoldenSaberish at all :-?
     

  3. burley

    burley Active Member

    Nov 26, 2006
    Kansas
    Re: Remington Golden Saber report with picture

    1 shot ,not changing my mind. I'v seen more positive results from more reliable test than this...JMHO
     
  4. jenshubby

    jenshubby New Member

    569
    Mar 5, 2008
    Re: Remington Golden Saber report with picture

    Hmmm, I don't have a P-3AT, but I do have the Bersa Thunder...so I'll keep your review in mind if/when I find these rounds for sale. Thanks! Good review.
     
  5. KelTex78

    KelTex78 New Member

    459
    Jan 10, 2009
    Re: Remington Golden Saber report with picture

    I'm not completely writing them off after just one shot! It just takes me a while to save up enough empty jugs for follow up testing. I will be posting again here with my results after I'm able to retry the test. And I would also like to try it with a couple of layers of denim over the jugs as well. Yes, I know that milk jugs aren't the most definitive test; it's all I have though and it's a lot of fun!
     
  6. KelTex78

    KelTex78 New Member

    459
    Jan 10, 2009
    Re: Remington Golden Saber report with picture

    How do you like your Bersa? I'm trying to find one for my wife; she is afraid of a gun with a lot of recoil and doesn't have the hand strength to fire a double-action .38 spl. (I think she's tensing up too much.) I thought that the size and caliber of the Berasa would be a good choice, and after reading the positive reviews I've started looking but can't find them anywhere. I had my dealer check and none of his suppliers had any available.
     
  7. joje

    joje New Member

    213
    Nov 1, 2007
    Re: Remington Golden Saber report with picture

    awhile back i took a couple of shots of 380 golden sabres against some old level I grade kevlar panels. to my surprise they neither expanded nor penetrated,  nor did the 45 acp hydrashocks. the 9mms fmjs zipped straight through
     
  8. jhartbarger

    jhartbarger New Member

    30
    Mar 9, 2009
    Re: Remington Golden Saber report with picture

    This is not uncommon with some HP ammo, I tested a whole bunch of stuff in my LCP and was not impressed with the GS's in it either, it gets a diet of Critical Defense from Hornady now.
     
  9. frankmako

    frankmako New Member

    Mar 11, 2006
    Chattanooga TN
    Re: Remington Golden Saber report with picture

    in the 380 acp ball ammo (fmj) works the best. but i still run a hydro-shok in the pipe with ball ammo in the mag. the second mag is all ball. i want the first round to shock and the ball to hit deep into the problem. there are many test that you can find on the net that shows different brands of hp 380 acp ammo not doing the job. but good old fmj is hard to beat in a 380 acp.
     
  10. Hoopster

    Hoopster New Member

    80
    Jan 10, 2009
    Re: Remington Golden Saber report with picture

    I don't think 100% water is a good test media. Try meat and I bet you would see better results. I shot a golden saber through 1 jug of water, into plywood and saw SOME expansion and it looked like a painful shape for sure.
     
  11. billjohnso20

    billjohnso20 Active Member

    Dec 7, 2008
    Re: Remington Golden Saber report with picture

    From what I've seen, the .380 GS is about the best .380 round in terms of upset. While I don't dispute your results, water jugs are not the best way to test JHP expansion. Gelatin is a superior medium for that. A web search yields several tests on this particular round. This one http://www.brassfetcher.com/index_files/Page1628.htm is about the best due to the pics. Clearly, the gelatin caused a complete upset in the round. The test gun was the KT P3AT. The muzzle energy comes in at 133 foot pounds. That's not that high of course but then shot placement is more important than caliber and energy transfer anyway.

    Of course this was bare gelatin. Heavy clothing could clog the hole at this velocity causing it to function more like an FMJ but I do not know this for sure. Lots of people are using FMJs in their .380s. Which if the round does fail to expand as in your test, then it will function as an FMJ. For my money, I say use the GS. If it works it works; if it doesn't it has the same ballistics as the FMJ. That's a win-win in my book. YMMV.

    Of course, some claim heavy clothing can cause premature upset limiting the penetration and the energy transfer. I don't know which is actually true.
     
  12. Axeman

    Axeman New Member

    81
    Oct 13, 2004
    Re: Remington Golden Saber report with picture

    How do you like your Bersa? I'm trying to find one for my wife; she is afraid of a gun with a lot of recoil and doesn't have the hand strength to fire a double-action .38 spl. (I think she's tensing up too much.) I thought that the size and caliber of the Berasa would be a good choice, and after reading the positive reviews I've started looking but can't find them anywhere. I had my dealer check and none of his suppliers had any available.[/quote]



    You could try this website,     http://www.galleryofguns.com/gallery/

     That page will say Coming Soon, but it is actually operating now. Click on "Find Retailer Near You" and the next page will ask for your zip code and the distance you are willing to travel to find the gun you're looking for. On that page just put in your zip code and follow the instructions and it will take you to a list of gun shops or other retailers who also sell guns within  a specified distance from your location  and you can check their inventory for whatever gun you're looking for and also  the seller's price for the gun.  When I was looking for a P-3AT back in December I couldn't find one anywhere in my area until I used that website to find a list of dealers within 25 miles of me who carry KelTek guns, and after about 6 or 8 weeks one of them showed 2 P3ATs  in stock and I got there in time to get one of them.  It may not work for you but it did for me, and in my opinion if I'm looking for a certain gun it's worth the little bit of effort to find out that way if there is one at a store in my area instead of calling around to all the gun shops in the yellow pages. Just my opinion but you might want to give it a try.

    Before I wrote this I  used that web page to look for a Bersa .380 in my area just to see if it still works and it does. But no gun shop around here shows any in stock, so they must be in short supply like almost everything else in the firearms line these days.  Obama should get some kind of award from the firearms industry association  for being the best gun and ammunition salesman in history.
     
  13. Celtic_Warrior

    Celtic_Warrior New Member

    98
    Feb 15, 2009
    Re: Remington Golden Saber report with picture

    Hi all:

    The Golden Saber stuff looks pretty good but I also found this while wondering around the www and figured some of you might want to see it.  This site has some really good hard data on ammo. (not sure if I'm violating any forum rules by sending you to another forum, if so sorry but this is good stuff).  A simular posting is in the P11 forum but DPX is supposedly developed for the P3AT.

    380 DPX tests http://www.stoppingpower.net/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10021
     
  14. 3AXBAT

    3AXBAT New Member

    14
    Feb 2, 2009
    Re: Remington Golden Saber report with picture

    Keltex78

    I saw over two dozen Bersa 380s come thru the range, and I am very impressed with them, especially since they're an inexpensive gun.  I didn't see one choke that wasn't caused by a limp wrist.  I found the triggers to be acceptable, much better than any PPK.  They're not prone to hammer bite.  The sights are adequate, but  nothing to write home about.  The ejection port is small which doesn't hinder function at all, but makes checking for a loaded chamber a little more difficult.  If you're on the ball enough to operate a single action/double action auto and the size isn't a problem, they are an excellent choice.
     
  15. billjohnso20

    billjohnso20 Active Member

    Dec 7, 2008
    Re: Remington Golden Saber report with picture

    Above, I defended the the GS as one of the best .380 rounds in terms of upset. Well, KelTex78's results have been weighing heavily on my mind. While I've not found anything on line where a tester got the same results KelTex78 got, I haven't been able to get that photo of the failed GS out of my head. As such I've done a little research on other ammos. I ran across the Hornady Critical Defense at my LGS. The owner Bill Wade got a case in the other day at $18.00 a 25 round box. The price was fantastic so I got two boxes to try out in my P3AT and my LCP.

    The round is new and features a an XTP bullet with the HP filled with the same soft flexible material they use in their Leverevolution ammo. The claim is the material guarantees the bullet will expand. If nothing else, I figure with this ammo and the Rem GS in my mags, I should be covered.

    According to http://hipowers-handguns.blogspot.com/2008/12/informal-tests-hornady-critical-defense.html this ammo has been tested in the LCP and achieved 10 inches of penetration whereas the FBI requires 12 inches of penetration. I would expect similar performance in the P3AT. Since I have both, I'll add it to my defense ammo for both but I'm not giving up on my Rem GS just yet though. I may even cycle test the two together by staggering them in the same mag. I think both will work just fine either alone or staggered together.
     
  16. Rubb

    Rubb New Member

    Jun 19, 2006
    Re: Remington Golden Saber report with picture

    Bill,

    You could be putting to much emphasis into bullet performance.
    The Golden Saber is a good round

    1. Awareness
    2. Reliability
    3. Shot placement (don’t matter without #2)
    4. Bullet performance (don’t matter without #2&3)

    If you're of the mindset that every little bit helps, you can pick up some velocity with a good barrel treatment too.

    http://www.tetraproducts.com/tech_info05.asp

    How about a test after treatment KT78 ;)

    All the best
     
  17. billjohnso20

    billjohnso20 Active Member

    Dec 7, 2008
    Re: Remington Golden Saber report with picture

    Sorry. I wasn't trying to put so much emphasis on bullet performance. I am one of those who puts more into shot placement. That is why I carry a .380. That is also why I won't be dumping the GS for the Hornady outright but will be using both for SD. I was just looking to see if another bullet design was out there that all but guaranteed expansion and energy transfer. The Hornady seems to fit that bill.

    I do admit that I can't really get the picture of the GS out of my mind's eye. My biggest fear is that a clogged HP could act as a FMJ and over penetrate. My concern is that someone could be struck by a bullet I fired. Yes, I know one must be aware of what is behind your target. However, there are SD situations where one must shoot and has no alternative. It is that scenario where I must shoot that I am concerned with over penetration from a failed HP. That is why I don't carry FMJ rounds. I might carry the newest expanding FMJ but I haven't found any of those anywhere with the ammo bubble being what it is.

    Again, I do put more emphasis on shot placement. I just want to do everything I can to never put anyone at risk except the BG.
     
  18. KelTex78

    KelTex78 New Member

    459
    Jan 10, 2009
  19. Mohave-Tec

    Mohave-Tec New Member

    264
    Mar 22, 2009
    Re: Updated: (new) Remington Golden Saber report +

    I hope you are correct. I've got a Feb 22 back-order from Cabelas that finally shipped. 100 rounds of Critical Defense will arrive Tueday. I'm going wax abd shine each one before I put then in a felt lined display case specially built for .380 rounds.