Trigger mod?

Discussion in 'P-3AT' started by spike87, Jan 13, 2010.

  1. spike87

    spike87 New Member

    29
    Mar 29, 2008
    I just got to shoot my brother inlaws p3at. Is there a way to shorten and lighten the trigger? How? How much?
     
  2. JFB

    JFB New Member

    Jul 25, 2005
    you can weaking the hammer spring and reduce the pull weieght but not the travel.
    how much you weaking the hammer spring depends on how hard are your ammo's primer

    basically cut the hook of the spring where it pins into the grip. drill a hole in the grip plug and thread a cut off drywall screw into the coils of the spring. you then adjust till hammer has enough force to fire a round
     

  3. rhinokrk

    rhinokrk New Member

    186
    Feb 20, 2008
    I didn't like that mod when packer posted it, and I still don't like it on a carry weapon... dangerous.

    YMMV
     
  4. billjohnso20

    billjohnso20 Active Member

    Dec 7, 2008
    I didn't like that mod when packer posted it, and I still don't like it on a carry weapon... dangerous.

    YMMV[/quote]
    Ditto. I would never adjust the hammer spring on a KT pistol, especially my carry guns. Shooting the gun does indeed improve the trigger some as the spring loosens up a bit.
     
  5. spike87

    spike87 New Member

    29
    Mar 29, 2008
    Why is this so dangerous? If you don't cut too much it won't lighten the pull too much right? And it doesn't effect length of pull? What other mods can be made?
     
  6. rhinokrk

    rhinokrk New Member

    186
    Feb 20, 2008
    It's a bush league mod. The person who "developed" this mod put "hundreds" of rounds in two days, all while online. It has to many variables to be consistent, what is keeping the screw and spring in the same position? If you want to improve the trigger try this http://www.ktog.org/tecwerks1.htm , scroll down to "Polishing The Trigger Action", and invest in some snap caps, dry fire the crap out of it.
     
  7. low-side

    low-side New Member

    96
    Jan 9, 2010
    All small pistols (except for some fairly high-end ones) have heavy triggers. It's a matter of leverage. The only safe remedy is to reduce friction through polishing and deburring internal parts. Anything else risks a light strike.
     
  8. DaveNC

    DaveNC Active Member

    221
    Mar 7, 2008
    There is another option that 2PP offered and worked well and that was to replace the main spring with a lighter one. This also required a mod to the firing pin spring as well. I did this on both my P3 and P11 and couldnt be happier. I wouldn't recommend trying to purchase any thing from 2PP now though.

    I changed the mod a bit because I didn't like the shortened firing pins and was getting light strikes periodically. No more light strikes now. Basically I went back to the original firing pin and took coils off the heavy firing pin spring until I got a consistently good dent in the primer. Both of my KT spring are about 2lbs lighter then factory and I love them and they go bang ever time I pull the trigger.

    I should add that a person could contact a gun spring manufacture and supply them with the proper spring size and they could come up with replacements that are drop in. I just never got around to doing it. Then a person could sell the replacement springs a heck of a lot cheaper the 2PP did cause he made a killing on these springs.
     
  9. spike87

    spike87 New Member

    29
    Mar 29, 2008
    Do you know about how any rings you took off?
     
  10. kt4me

    kt4me New Member

    76
    Feb 9, 2006
    I don't know, I call the long heavy pull THE SAFETY!
     
  11. nmshooter

    nmshooter New Member

    Jan 25, 2008
    +1. I would also recommend doing the fluff and bluff and if you are still not satisfied pursue further.
     
  12. PshootR

    PshootR Banned

    Apr 1, 2005
    PLEASE DON'T DO THIS FOR YOUR OWN SAFETY

    The modified modification described above could prove to be very dangerous with a P-11 and have potential problems with the hammer block style Kel-Tecs (P-32, P3-AT & PF-9).

    With a P-11 the hammer will rest all the way forward against either the back of the slide or the back end of the firing pin, whichever offers the most resistance. If you do not shorten the firing pin so that it is just slightly shorter than the firing pin channel you will either have the hammer pressing the firing pin forward into the primer at rest or have the firing pin pushing the hammer back away from the rear of the slide but ready to move forward against the rear of the firing pin thus pushing the pin forward into the primer if the pistol is dropped muzzle down from any significant height. The reason Kel-Tec uses such a strong firing pin spring is to prevent the latter scenario from occurring.

    By shortening the firing pin and weakening the firing pin spring you allow the hammer to rest fully forward against the back of the slide and keep it from pressing the firing pin forward into the primer at the same time. The forward motion of the hammer is effectively blocked by the slide. The firing pin is trapped between the face of the hammer and the primer, and since it is very light and can travel but a very short distance it can not develop sufficient kinetic energy under its own weight in a muzzle down drop situation to detonate a primer.

    Makarovs use a similar system and are considered drop safe. They have no firing pin spring but the hammer is blocked at rest and the firing pin is very light. Since the hammer is blocked from forward travel and held back from the rear of the firing pin until the trigger is pulled they can actually use a firing pin that is longer than the firing pin channel and be completely safe.

    In the hammer block Kel-Tecs a firing pin that is longer than its channel in the slide can be pressed forward against a spent primer by the forward force of the hammer after firing and potentially cause cycling issues, although I have only noticed this when using snap caps multiple times and the "primer" in the snap cap became dented by repeated firing pin strikes or when using a spent cartridge case as a substitute snap cap. Using a "long" firing pin with a lightened firing pin spring would also be potentially less safe if you were to drop your pistol and the hammer were to be jarred loose from the hammer block, allowing the hammer to fall against the firing pin from the lowered hammer block position.
     
  13. billjohnso20

    billjohnso20 Active Member

    Dec 7, 2008
  14. spike87

    spike87 New Member

    29
    Mar 29, 2008
    So if you shorten the firing pin springs and also shorten the firing pin, doesn't it negate the lightening of the trigger pull you originally obtained from cutting the sring? And the only way to cut the spring safely is to also shorten the pin to prevent discharges when dropped?
     
  15. PshootR

    PshootR Banned

    Apr 1, 2005
    As this modification was originally suggested the end user would:

    1. Shorten the firing pin until it was just slightly shorter than the firing pin channel in the slide.

    2. Install a much lighter firing pin spring.

    3. Install a somewhat lighter hammer spring.

    You could use the "paper clip mod" http://www.1bad69.com/keltec/triggerpull.htm for # three on the list.

    Shortening the firing pin spring would be a poor substitute for a much lighter spring in # two.
     
  16. CJP32

    CJP32 Active Member

    Jul 24, 2008
    Not going to risk any FTF on my carry weapon due to a "mod".

    I trust my life to my KT's as they have proven very reliable, why would I want to risk that for a lighter trigger pull?

    Polish the trigger bar, buy some snap caps and PRACTICE.

    CJ
     
  17. DaveNC

    DaveNC Active Member

    221
    Mar 7, 2008
    The modified modification described above could prove to be very dangerous with a P-11 and have potential problems with the hammer block style Kel-Tecs (P-32, P3-AT & PF-9).

    With a P-11 the hammer will rest all the way forward against either the back of the slide or the back end of the firing pin, whichever offers the most resistance. If you do not shorten the firing pin so that it is just slightly shorter than the firing pin channel you will either have the hammer pressing the firing pin forward into the primer at rest or have the firing pin pushing the hammer back away from the rear of the slide but ready to move forward against the rear of the firing pin thus pushing the pin forward into the primer if the pistol is dropped muzzle down from any significant height. The reason Kel-Tec uses such a strong firing pin spring is to prevent the latter scenario from occurring.

    By shortening the firing pin and weakening the firing pin spring you allow the hammer to rest fully forward against the back of the slide and keep it from pressing the firing pin forward into the primer at the same time. The forward motion of the hammer is effectively blocked by the slide. The firing pin is trapped between the face of the hammer and the primer, and since it is very light and can travel but a very short distance it can not develop sufficient kinetic energy under its own weight in a muzzle down drop situation to detonate a primer.

    Makarovs use a similar system and are considered drop safe. They have no firing pin spring but the hammer is blocked at rest and the firing pin is very light. Since the hammer is blocked from forward travel and held back from the rear of the firing pin until the trigger is pulled they can actually use a firing pin that is longer than the firing pin channel and be completely safe.

    In the hammer block Kel-Tecs a firing pin that is longer than its channel in the slide can be pressed forward against a spent primer by the forward force of the hammer after firing and potentially cause cycling issues, although I have only noticed this when using snap caps multiple times and the "primer" in the snap cap became dented by repeated firing pin strikes or when using a spent cartridge case as a substitute snap cap. Using a "long" firing pin with a lightened firing pin spring would also be potentially less safe if you were to drop your pistol and the hammer were to be jarred loose from the hammer block, allowing the hammer to fall against the firing pin from the lowered hammer block position.

    [/quote]

    I tested my P11 with primered brass and simulated drop testing it. I actually banged the crap out of it on my wooden bench with a LOT more force then dropping the pistol from the waist or higher would have applied and I barely even dented the primers. I did shorten the firing pin some as well but no where near as much 2PP did. I had way to many light strikes with the extra light firing pin spring and shortened firing pin supplied with the kit. Since the new hammer spring was weaker the firing pin spring needed to be weaker as well. My P11 is just as safe as a stock P11 with the way I did the mod. I tested it on the P11 first because I wanted to be sure it could be done safely before proceeding with the P3. The force of the modified firing pin spring still holds the hammer back like it supposed to and does not require cutting the trigger bar down in order for it to work properly. Cutting the trigger bar any amount causes the trigger to hammer interface to not line up properly and creates more problems. I even tried using my mill to cut it down accurately to no avail. That angle is critical.

    I applied the same diligence to the P3 with no problems.

    You have to remember that the hammer spring force has been reduced significantly which relieves the corresponding force on the hammer when dropped. You just don't have the same forces applied on the firing pin with a weaker hammer spring. With the new hammer spring and orginial firing pin spring the pistol would not hardly even dent the primer. I know because I tested every step as I was removing coils off the firing pin spring. If this pistol would have come with a weaker hammer spring then it would also have come with a lighter firing pin spring.

    2PP mod was just not reliable enough for me. I had light strikes on both pistols more often then I should have.

    I disagree with the statement that what I did was unsafe and would be willing to put it to the test with any stock P11 as far as drop testing goes.

    This is really a mute issue because the reduced power hammer springs are not available anymore.
     
  18. Picatinny_Pete

    Picatinny_Pete New Member

    Sep 2, 2009
    Hello,

    I've worked on several P3AT's and have done the paper clip modification to several.  It is my observation that not every P3AT or P-32 needs the modification since the pull varies from pistol to pistol, but sometimes it is needed as the pistol has a relatively heavy trigger.  My feeling is that the modification properly done is safe.  It smooths out the pull with a good F&B so that it seems like a nice DA pistol/revolver.  I always test fire the pistol after the paper clip modification to make sure it will reliably fire.  I also recommend a heavier recoil spring to take up the resistance lost be going to a lighter hammer spring so the P#AT will not be as "Snappy".  I hope my point of view is helpful.

    Best Regards: