I'm considering a sub 2000 Glock mag 9mm. I have a Glock 19 already. I do not own a rifle and would like one. I live in Florida near the coast. My brother in law went through hurricane charley in pt charlotte, Fl. He told me about some looting that went on. Devastating huricanes bring up the possibility of outside engagements. He said I should get a traditional 223 cal rifle. I like the cost of the sub much better and the interchangable mags with my Glock. Question, What is the max range of hitting a man size targe with good optics and stock sites? I don't want the answer from the manual, but actual user data. Thanks, Dbl Tap
sub2000 9mm range?
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Not to bust your bubble, but if you were to shoot a "looter" at the max range of either your Glock, or a SUB2K, you would be arrested and charged with murder as soon as order was restored.
On the otherhand, if the looter were shooting at me with a scoped center-fire rifle, and knew how to shoot it, I would want at least a .223 to shoot back with.
But then, if he were shooting at me, he wouldn't just be a looter, so I could probably get away with shooting back.
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rcmodel
On the otherhand, if the looter were shooting at me with a scoped center-fire rifle, and knew how to shoot it, I would want at least a .223 to shoot back with.
But then, if he were shooting at me, he wouldn't just be a looter, so I could probably get away with shooting back.
rcmodel
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100 yards is a reasonable limit for engaging a one foot diameter target with the stock peep sight. Better optics with some magnification should allow you to engage a six inch target at 100 to 150 yards if you're good, shooting off a bench rest, etc. Personally, I don't see that as the best application for a SUB-2000, and a .223 would do better at longer ranges.
Pistol caliber ammunition is not very good at long distance shooting, even after the velocity is pumped up by the longer carbine barrel. The bullet's ballistic coefficient is not very good, so that places limits on the range, and also means the bullet trajectory will experience more windage drift.
Another issue is the quality of the ammunition. Commercial rifle ammunition is manufactured with a reasonable expectation of accuracy. Pistol ammunition is intended for use in pistols, so they don't control the parameters that effect accuracy nearly as tightly, because that degree of precision would be a wasted expense because it'd seldom be appreciated in a pistol.
You can sight the subbie to zero the optics at both 25 and 100 yards and it'll shoot flat to within a couple of inches throughout that range. At 200 yards, the point of impact is -25 to -30 inches. I'd consider that the practical limit for SUB-2000 shooting. After that, the low BC bullet is dropping fast.
If your purpose is defensive, I'm not sure what application you'd have past 25 yards anyway.
Pistol caliber ammunition is not very good at long distance shooting, even after the velocity is pumped up by the longer carbine barrel. The bullet's ballistic coefficient is not very good, so that places limits on the range, and also means the bullet trajectory will experience more windage drift.
Another issue is the quality of the ammunition. Commercial rifle ammunition is manufactured with a reasonable expectation of accuracy. Pistol ammunition is intended for use in pistols, so they don't control the parameters that effect accuracy nearly as tightly, because that degree of precision would be a wasted expense because it'd seldom be appreciated in a pistol.
You can sight the subbie to zero the optics at both 25 and 100 yards and it'll shoot flat to within a couple of inches throughout that range. At 200 yards, the point of impact is -25 to -30 inches. I'd consider that the practical limit for SUB-2000 shooting. After that, the low BC bullet is dropping fast.
If your purpose is defensive, I'm not sure what application you'd have past 25 yards anyway.
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I would say get a rifle caliber long gun but have the SUB2000 as a bag gun.You could take the Subbie places where the long gun would really get noticed and if things get bad that you need more than your side arm,you have the Subbie in the bag.Shotguns get the most respect I feel as the criminal element knows if they get shot by one,they are quite in trouble!Self defense distances are not usually 300 yards...
This may give you a better idea of my reasoning. The senario my brother in laws friend went through was... His home is on a remote street of 5 acre lots. His garage doors were blown in and partial damage to the homes windows and the roof, power was out for 22 days. He sent his wife and kids to a friends home in Tampa. He had one car destroyed and his wife took the other. He has several big boy toys like 2 jet skis in the garage and a boat next to the house. He also lives a few miles from a bad neighborhood. His driveway is about 75 yards long.
One day a pick-up truck drives half way up his driveway and a car stops at the top of the driveway for a few minutes. three or four in the car and two in the truck. They sat for a while then the two guys from the car walked up past the truck one headed toward the boat the other toward the jet skis. The homeowner had to make a decision as to what to do. He decided to let them know someone was home and would not be an easy target. He was already locked and loaded for bear. He had his 45 cal sig on his hip in a tactical holster and a mini-14 hanging from a sling over his shoulder. He walked out on the porch like he was from the welcome wagon. The two guys bolted for the near by pickup and jumped in the back. I am sure to find easier prey. If these guys were heavily armed and more determined, this could have become a long range engagement over a 5 acre lot.
If you live in Florida you think about these things. New Orleans was without a working government and police for weeks..
He may or may not have made the right decision. Any decision he made could have been a good or bad decision as there were many variables. He is not the running type as I suspect many of us arn't either by nature....
One day a pick-up truck drives half way up his driveway and a car stops at the top of the driveway for a few minutes. three or four in the car and two in the truck. They sat for a while then the two guys from the car walked up past the truck one headed toward the boat the other toward the jet skis. The homeowner had to make a decision as to what to do. He decided to let them know someone was home and would not be an easy target. He was already locked and loaded for bear. He had his 45 cal sig on his hip in a tactical holster and a mini-14 hanging from a sling over his shoulder. He walked out on the porch like he was from the welcome wagon. The two guys bolted for the near by pickup and jumped in the back. I am sure to find easier prey. If these guys were heavily armed and more determined, this could have become a long range engagement over a 5 acre lot.
If you live in Florida you think about these things. New Orleans was without a working government and police for weeks..
He may or may not have made the right decision. Any decision he made could have been a good or bad decision as there were many variables. He is not the running type as I suspect many of us arn't either by nature....
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I would imagine a show of just about any gun would have had the same result.
Those people probably weren't real smart, but they were not real stupid either.
Why mess with an armed home owner when there are plenty of other homes to loot with no one home?
Then again, in that situation, if push came to shove with an armed band, I would want at least .223 power level, and 30 round mag capacity, with several loaded mags.
Heck, I'd take a 30-30 lever-gun and a pocket full of ammo over any 9mm under those circumstances.
A 9mm at long range might put them down, but probably not decisively enough to keep at least some of them from returning fire.
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rcmodel
Those people probably weren't real smart, but they were not real stupid either.
Why mess with an armed home owner when there are plenty of other homes to loot with no one home?
Then again, in that situation, if push came to shove with an armed band, I would want at least .223 power level, and 30 round mag capacity, with several loaded mags.
Heck, I'd take a 30-30 lever-gun and a pocket full of ammo over any 9mm under those circumstances.
A 9mm at long range might put them down, but probably not decisively enough to keep at least some of them from returning fire.
rcmodel
I would say 100 yds is a reasonable limit. A standard 9mm JHP round maintains enough velocity at 100 yds to penetrate and expand and has a flat trajectory out that far. Beyond that it is not really lethal and is dropping like a rock. Using a reddot scope with no magnification, I can hit a milk jug at 100 yds from a standing position using the sling to steady my aim. Prone is a little better. So you could say that the subbie has MOBG (minute of bad guy) accuracy at 100 yds.
I'm not so enthusiastic about .223 at all. If you need to shoot beyond 100 yds. I think you are in bolt action, scoped rifle territory. I use a Winchester Model 70 in .243 and in my hands it has MOBG accuracy to 300 yds. But as mentioned above, you'd better have a really good reason to shoot someone that far away.
I'm not so enthusiastic about .223 at all. If you need to shoot beyond 100 yds. I think you are in bolt action, scoped rifle territory. I use a Winchester Model 70 in .243 and in my hands it has MOBG accuracy to 300 yds. But as mentioned above, you'd better have a really good reason to shoot someone that far away.
A couple other posters here hit the nail on the head. 100 yards is about the maximum “practical” range for a Sub2K, with an ideal range being under 50 yards. Between 100 yards and 200 yards, you’re looking at a .223 (like the SU-16). And beyond 200 yards, a scoped bolt action is probably your best bet.dbl_tap said:
For the situations you’ve described, I’d want to own a .223 like the SU-16 or an AR-15. (And in fact I DO own both, along with my G17 S2K.). But if those are too pricey, the Sub 2000 will work.
Besides, and as others here have said, you’d better have a darn good reason to shoot anyone past 50 yards anyway.
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50 bmg? 8)
I've got one of these... http://www.inetres.com/gp/military/infantry/rifle/M107.html .... works great in the non-sniper role too......personally, I like to get up close though....I am M60/M240 kind of guy.
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With my experience limited only to 25 and 75 yard ranges, I'd say the 9mm sub is at the very least adequate for what you have in mind. It's inexpensive, reliable, shares mags, can hold 33rnd Glock 18 mags, easily stowed and concealed in times of crisis.
Imagine walking through New Orleans toting a long rifle...you become suspicious and are a shoot first ask questions later target. Keep a sub folded under a coat or in a small case and you arouse no such suspicion.
My sub can shoot fist sized holes at 75 yards without optics or a rest....for all the 9mm haters, it's placement that counts.
Now that said, I own several of the alternatives mentioned. My sub would not be the first choice, but I certainly wouldn't feel insecure if I found myself only able to grab it rather than something else.
So, sure if you want to shoot zombies in the head at 600 meters, get a bolt action. If you want to shoot 'em in center of mass at 200 meters get a AR15. If you want to shoot them with little regard to anything standing near or behind them, get a scatter gun. But if you want a inexpensive, fun, reliable, and stowable weapon, get the Sub.
roy d....or spend a fortune and get 'em all, like I did! ;D
Imagine walking through New Orleans toting a long rifle...you become suspicious and are a shoot first ask questions later target. Keep a sub folded under a coat or in a small case and you arouse no such suspicion.
My sub can shoot fist sized holes at 75 yards without optics or a rest....for all the 9mm haters, it's placement that counts.
Now that said, I own several of the alternatives mentioned. My sub would not be the first choice, but I certainly wouldn't feel insecure if I found myself only able to grab it rather than something else.
So, sure if you want to shoot zombies in the head at 600 meters, get a bolt action. If you want to shoot 'em in center of mass at 200 meters get a AR15. If you want to shoot them with little regard to anything standing near or behind them, get a scatter gun. But if you want a inexpensive, fun, reliable, and stowable weapon, get the Sub.
roy d....or spend a fortune and get 'em all, like I did! ;D
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Believe me, shooting with that you need to be FARTHER out than 100 yards, plus its nearly a 40lb weapon with a very small magazine and I doubt you could fire it standing (*haven't tired, no would I want to...*)THE_HUNTER said:
-bix
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