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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
As far as function is concerned does the Kel -Tec sub 2000 Gen 2 9mm prone to give better function with a 124 grain Hollow point Factory ammo or with 147 Grain hollow point Factory ammo?

For Home defense would the 124 Grain standard Pressure be better than the 147 Grain standard pressure?

Thoughts on the choice?

Thanks
 

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Standard Answer: It Depends.
It depends on how much you should be worried about overpenetration. A LOT if you live in an apartment, some if you live in a neighborhood with the houses spitwad distance from each other, or not at all if you live in a truly rural area - all mitigated by whether you live in a house with brick exterior walls.
I think it would also depend on whether you are using a suppressor, how your house is laid out and where the children's rooms are situated, and the design of the bullet itself.
If it helps at all, I read a very convincing article that advocated for soft nose bullets (exposed lead nose, in other words) if you use a rifle for home defense. The author explained it so well and supported his conclusions so well that it convinced me to change the rounds in keep in my magazines.
 

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Rounds are optimized and tested by the factory for use with certain barrel lengths, but for whatever reason they rarely advertise that detail.

For instance, Winchester 147gr Train/Defend is optimized for use in the 3” barrels of compact carry pistols (as demonstrated by ShootingTheBull’s 9mm roundup on YouTube). Other brands and/or bullet weights may tend to be more appropriate for use in full size pistols with a 4.5” or 5” barrel in order to get optimal penetration and expansion.

As far as I’m aware, no brand makes a 9mm round specifically designed for optimal terminal performance with the 16” barrels of PCCs at either similar range as typical pistol targets (ie. 7 or 10 yards) or longer range (ie. 50 or 100 yards). Relative velocity at distance can be used to estimate at what distance a round fired from a PCC will have similar terminal performance to what it would exhibit if fired from a pistol, but that’s definitely an imperfect method.

PCCs do tend to be used at longer distances, which introduces concerns about accuracy and precision not relevant for pistols that will likewise be effected by how the factory chose to optimize the round.

All that said, if reliable function is your focus and not terminal performance, there are plenty of options available. Since blowback operating systems require significant force to overcome the inertia of the bolt and cause full bolt travel, most manufacturers (including KelTec) recommend the use of “full power” rounds. That tends to mean 124gr or 147gr bullets with high advertized muzzle velocities (bearing in mind of course that those velocities were most likely determined using a much shorter barrel as mentioned above).

I recommend just picking up a box of each of a variety of options and seeing how they perform for you. I think you’re likely to find that Sub2Ks are pretty tolerant of a wide range of rounds for function and your focus will shift to differences in accuracy and precision instead.
 

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I've found my sub2k to run pretty much every bullet weight I put in it fine. I have a heavy bolt weight in it and I fired thousands of rounds of butterfly fart ammo with no problems and I've fired lots of factory ammo which is hotter. What I did have problems with was aluminum cased ammo. But I haven't heard of anyone else having problems with it.

Any ammo you choose you should fire a mess of it to make sure it runs 100%.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Standard Answer: It Depends.
It depends on how much you should be worried about overpenetration. A LOT if you live in an apartment, some if you live in a neighborhood with the houses spitwad distance from each other, or not at all if you live in a truly rural area - all mitigated by whether you live in a house with brick exterior walls.
I think it would also depend on whether you are using a suppressor, how your house is laid out and where the children's rooms are situated, and the design of the bullet itself.
If it helps at all, I read a very convincing article that advocated for soft nose bullets (exposed lead nose, in other words) if you use a rifle for home defense. The author explained it so well and supported his conclusions so well that it convinced me to change the rounds in keep in my magazines.
My wife and I live in a rural area with 200yards separating us from our nearest neighbor's
No suppressor with the farthest to shoot in the house right at 10 long steps,Just the Wife and I ,no one else there.
What soft nose Lead bullets are you using in your Kel-Tec Sub 2000?
Thanks
ed
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Rounds are optimized and tested by the factory for use with certain barrel lengths, but for whatever reason they rarely advertise that detail.

For instance, Winchester 147gr Train/Defend is optimized for use in the 3” barrels of compact carry pistols (as demonstrated by ShootingTheBull’s 9mm roundup on YouTube). Other brands and/or bullet weights may tend to be more appropriate for use in full size pistols with a 4.5” or 5” barrel in order to get optimal penetration and expansion.

As far as I’m aware, no brand makes a 9mm round specifically designed for optimal terminal performance with the 16” barrels of PCCs at either similar range as typical pistol targets (ie. 7 or 10 yards) or longer range (ie. 50 or 100 yards). Relative velocity at distance can be used to estimate at what distance a round fired from a PCC will have similar terminal performance to what it would exhibit if fired from a pistol, but that’s definitely an imperfect method.

PCCs do tend to be used at longer distances, which introduces concerns about accuracy and precision not relevant for pistols that will likewise be effected by how the factory chose to optimize the round.

All that said, if reliable function is your focus and not terminal performance, there are plenty of options available. Since blowback operating systems require significant force to overcome the inertia of the bolt and cause full bolt travel, most manufacturers (including KelTec) recommend the use of “full power” rounds. That tends to mean 124gr or 147gr bullets with high advertized muzzle velocities (bearing in mind of course that those velocities were most likely determined using a much shorter barrel as mentioned above).

I recommend just picking up a box of each of a variety of options and seeing how they perform for you. I think you’re likely to find that Sub2Ks are pretty tolerant of a wide range of rounds for function and your focus will shift to differences in accuracy and precision instead.
The longest shot would be about 10 long steps. From what I have read the 147 grain does approx 1000 FPS from either a Long barreled pistol or the 16 inch barrel of the Kel-Tec but gains approx 150 to 200 Fps from the 16 inch barrel of the Kel-Tec when using a 124 grain bullet at approx 1,200 FPS.
The 147 grain should be easier on the ears as it will of course be subsonic .

I like the Federal HST ammo which I can get either in the 124 or the 147 grain loads.
Thanks
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
I've found my sub2k to run pretty much every bullet weight I put in it fine. I have a heavy bolt weight in it and I fired thousands of rounds of butterfly fart ammo with no problems and I've fired lots of factory ammo which is hotter. What I did have problems with was aluminum cased ammo. But I haven't heard of anyone else having problems with it.

Any ammo you choose you should fire a mess of it to make sure it runs 100%.
Does the heavy bolt make a significant reduction using factory loads?
Thanks
 

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The longest shot would be about 10 long steps. From what I have read the 147 grain does approx 1000 FPS from either a Long barreled pistol or the 16 inch barrel of the Kel-Tec but gains approx 150 to 200 Fps from the 16 inch barrel of the Kel-Tec when using a 124 grain bullet at approx 1,200 FPS.
The 147 grain should be easier on the ears as it will of course be subsonic .

I like the Federal HST ammo which I can get either in the 124 or the 147 grain loads.
Thanks
I can appreciate trying to find an appropriate home defense firearm. I personally use a Glock G40.

In theory, the additional expansion of the 147 gr rounds will somewhat mitigate the potential for over penetration from the additional velocity of the 16” barrel. That’s assuming the bullets don’t fragment from the additional velocity.

In all honesty, a PCC isn’t really appropriate for home defense unless there are physical limitations that make a pistol or shotgun not an option. But that’s my opinion. In the end, having a firearm prepared is good no matter which you choose. Make sure you and anyone else who may have to employ it spend appropriate time training to use it.

Ammunition choice really is a wash as long as it is reliable, unless you spend the time and expense to test penetration in ballistic gel yourself.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
I can appreciate trying to find an appropriate home defense firearm. I personally use a Glock G40.

In theory, the additional expansion of the 147 gr rounds will somewhat mitigate the potential for over penetration from the additional velocity of the 16” barrel. That’s assuming the bullets don’t fragment from the additional velocity.

In all honesty, a PCC isn’t really appropriate for home defense unless there are physical limitations that make a pistol or shotgun not an option. But that’s my opinion. In the end, having a firearm prepared is good no matter which you choose. Make sure you and anyone else who may have to employ it spend appropriate time training to use it.

Ammunition choice really is a wash as long as it is reliable, unless you spend the time and expense to test penetration in ballistic gel yourself.
I have read and watched many video's on you youtube with test in ballistic gel and chronograph and the consensus it as I wrote that there are velocity gains with the 124 Grain load and no velocity gains with the 147 grain loads other than it is subsonic and not as loud as the 124 grain load.

I would think that the PCC makes a lot of sense for people that cant take the recoil and blast of the shotgun and with the increased capacity of the pcc there is more instantly available firepower for multiple assailants and for misses and the Kel-Tec Sub 2000 with its extremely light is easier to hold up than a shotgun or any heavier firearm and I think that the consensus that MOST people shoot better with a rifle than a Handgun is spot on.

I am 62 Raised in the country and have been shooting a lot of different firearms since I was 10 years old and have Multiple firearms that can be used for home defense.
Including Shotguns, Ar-15 rifles,and several Glock pistols .

My wife is 74 and about 85 pounds so I am looking for something that does not kick as much as the 20 Gauge semi- automatic shotgun loaded with Federal 2-3/4 inch number 3 buckshot load that she currently uses.

As far as the Handgun she has a Glock gen 4 model 26 that she carries every day along with a Ruger LCP that she can shoot pretty well but I think that she will be able to shoot the PCC better .
I intend to put a Light and Small laser on it so she could shoot from any position accurately.

She shoots the AR rifles well but I think that the PCC will have less muzzle blast than the 223 rifles if she ever has to use it inside the home.
And the PCC in 9mm has a cheaper price for ammo for practicing.

All things considered I Think The PCC is a good choice for home defense for the average person.
And if the SUB 2000 9mm is reliable will check all the boxes for relatively short overall length,relatively low blast ,relatively low recoil and light weight and high capacity with a Glock 33 round magazine.

I have wanted one for Many Many years but have always been concerned with their durability and reliability.

I am going to give one a try and if it is both reliable and durable with a factory loaded Hollowpoint then I will be pleased.

I will have one in a couple of days to see.

If Not then I will get rid of it as I don't keep guns that aren't reliable.

Thanks
 

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I have read and watched many video's on you youtube with test in ballistic gel and chronograph and the consensus it as I wrote that there are velocity gains with the 124 Grain load and no velocity gains with the 147 grain loads other than it is subsonic and not as loud as the 124 grain load.

I would think that the PCC makes a lot of sense for people that cant take the recoil and blast of the shotgun and with the increased capacity of the pcc there is more instantly available firepower for multiple assailants and for misses and the Kel-Tec Sub 2000 with its extremely light is easier to hold up than a shotgun or any heavier firearm and I think that the consensus that MOST people shoot better with a rifle than a Handgun is spot on.

I am 62 Raised in the country and have been shooting a lot of different firearms since I was 10 years old and have Multiple firearms that can be used for home defense.
Including Shotguns, Ar-15 rifles,and several Glock pistols .

My wife is 74 and about 85 pounds so I am looking for something that does not kick as much as the 20 Gauge semi- automatic shotgun loaded with Federal 2-3/4 inch number 3 buckshot load that she currently uses.

As far as the Handgun she has a Glock gen 4 model 26 that she carries every day along with a Ruger LCP that she can shoot pretty well but I think that she will be able to shoot the PCC better .
I intend to put a Light and Small laser on it so she could shoot from any position accurately.

She shoots the AR rifles well but I think that the PCC will have less muzzle blast than the 223 rifles if she ever has to use it inside the home.
And the PCC in 9mm has a cheaper price for ammo for practicing.

All things considered I Think The PCC is a good choice for home defense for the average person.
And if the SUB 2000 9mm is reliable will check all the boxes for relatively short overall length,relatively low blast ,relatively low recoil and light weight and high capacity with a Glock 33 round magazine.

I have wanted one for Many Many years but have always been concerned with their durability and reliability.

I am going to give one a try and if it is both reliable and durable with a factory loaded Hollowpoint then I will be pleased.

I will have one in a couple of days to see.

If Not then I will get rid of it as I don't keep guns that aren't reliable.

Thanks
From what you’ve said I think the Sub2K is a solid fit. Make sure your wife is comfortable with it and that both of you take at least a day a month to keep your skills familiar.

My advice is to not dive too deep down the rabbit hole of ballistic minutiae, but rather focus on reliability and use inexpensive ammunition to maintain both of your skill and muscle memory.
 

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All depends on how you plan to defend, what to use. If someone is so far out in the boonies that it takes hours for a LEO to show up you're going to maybe want something other than a rifle or shotgun as you'll probably want to clear your own home. A handgun would be far less likely to be levered out of ones grasp if it's used correctly. But if one will designate a safe room where everyone gathers and the firearm is pointed down a hallway the handgun starts to lose it's luster since other firearms are easier to use and they also bring other attributes to the fore.

bcraig, as to the heavy bolt weight... If I have a choice of more mass to strip a round from the mag and stuff it into the chamber or a lighter one, as long as it's reliable I'll always choose more mass if weight isn't an issue. In theory the heavy bolt will reduce recoil, so I've heard, but if it did I never noticed. I'm not very recoil sensitive from years of shooting really big stuff from the hands and shoulder. It's said that a small handgun will recoil more than a full size one, but until one gets into really small handguns I just don't notice it. I've mentioned that to another shooter and he confirmed what I told him as part of his experience as well. My point is that maybe some people will find the heavy bolt to make a difference on the shoulder but I never did. Again, I did it for reliability and other than the aluminum cased ball ammo I never had a malfunction. I also figured that if I ever wanted to shoot +p ammo it would help it work better w/o smashing the gun. I think I remember that it's the bolt weight used in the .40 sub2ks.
 

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As far as function is concerned does the Kel -Tec sub 2000 Gen 2 9mm prone to give better function with a 124 grain Hollow point Factory ammo or with 147 Grain hollow point Factory ammo?

For Home defense would the 124 Grain standard Pressure be better than the 147 Grain standard pressure?

Thoughts on the choice?

Thanks
Personally, I use 124 grains for everything.
 

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From what you’ve said I think the Sub2K is a solid fit. Make sure your wife is comfortable with it and that both of you take at least a day a month to keep your skills familiar.

My advice is to not dive too deep down the rabbit hole of ballistic minutiae, but rather focus on reliability and use inexpensive ammunition to maintain both of your skill and muscle memory.
Also, please make sure your wife is capable of charging the S2K, cocking and can chamber a round. I am 74 yrs old though not frail and charging is a real chore, really messed with my shoulder until I learned a better way to hold and do it.
They are a beautiful little light weight PCC that I think I'm going to really love.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Also, please make sure your wife is capable of charging the S2K, cocking and can chamber a round. I am 74 yrs old though not frail and charging is a real chore, really messed with my shoulder until I learned a better way to hold and do it.
They are a beautiful little light weight PCC that I think I'm going to really love.
Yes, I would like for her to be able to Charge it herself in case of a malfunction however I will be Charging it Initially as it will be kept in the house with the chamber loaded as is any firearm.

My Wife and I are the only ones in the house and we both feel like an unloaded gun is nothing but a club while an unloaded handgun is nothing but a SHORT club!
I have also NEVER had an issue with firing pin spring set, although I suppose there is a first time for everything.

I would like to know the the easiest way to charge the rifle in case of a misfire, jam or bad primer though.
What is the better way that you learned to charge the rifle?

Thanks
 

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Yes, I would like for her to be able to Charge it herself in case of a malfunction however I will be Charging it Initially as it will be kept in the house with the chamber loaded as is any firearm.

My Wife and I are the only ones in the house and we both feel like an unloaded gun is nothing but a club while an unloaded handgun is nothing but a SHORT club!
I have also NEVER had an issue with firing pin spring set, although I suppose there is a first time for everything.

I would like to know the the easiest way to charge the rifle in case of a misfire, jam or bad primer though.
What is the better way that you learned to charge the rifle?

Thanks
Great as long as everyone knows that and doesn’t inadvertently bump the safety off and fire the weapon unintentionally. Good luck, it should be a great home and personal defense weapon.
 

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Yes, I would like for her to be able to Charge it herself in case of a malfunction...What is the better way that you learned to charge the rifle?

For me, the "best" method is push-pull...fire control hand has normal grip, charging control hand has middle finger on charging handle with index finger parallel to bolt tube...push forward with fire control, pull back with charging control, & let 'er rip, tater chip. Works best for me as a righty with the gat rotated a bit counter-clockwise.

FWIW, I prefer mine as condition 3 ready, safety off. I want to run that bolt before engaging. Sort of a last clarity check, if you will. But you do you.

Just a thought...if the SO can't reliably run the bolt, perhaps another option might be "more optimal".
 

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According to your info as stated above in all posts, for YOUR conditions / situation, 124gr. vs 147gr. is a wash. What is important is projectile. I have very similar conditions in that I or my family may (stress MAY) have a need to shoot outside the house (yotes, feral dogs, a rabid Racoon last week in front of the back shed). For self defense especially inside the house, a good expanding performing hollow point (Gold Dots, Sabers, Silver Tips etc.) or a good frangible round will serve you fine. My family system at home is a SUB and a G23 both in .40 cal with the first two rounds frangible and the rest of the mags Golden Sabers. Important! Both of you shoot the ammo you are going to use and learn it. If you mix ammo frang / HP types like I do, choose ammo that has a reasonably compatible POA / POI. Not comfortable mixing ammo types then just stick to one, for pure inside a house home defense I like frang because I have 4 females + me in the house.
 

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I've run 115, 124, 147, and even Liberty 50 grain. No difference except POI at 25 yds due to different brands and weights. At home defense distances, just find what you can afford and practice a lot to see what works for you. I added a red dot and it makes a world of difference for me.

The bigger issue is charging it and recoil, not bullet weight. Anything JHP coming out of that barrel will probably be just fine for your purpose.
 
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