Standard range?

Discussion in 'P-3AT' started by downhill, Jul 7, 2008.

  1. downhill

    downhill New Member

    82
    Jul 2, 2008
    Ok, this gives away my newbie status with these mouse guns, but what is considered the effective range of these guns? I hear 21 feet alot. Is that the generally accepted test range or is there really a "standard" at all? I tend to push all my guns to their limit, but for the sake of comparison I need a yard stick.

    PS, I just ordered a green one. I've got the bug bad :cool:

    Thanks,
    David
     
  2. JFB

    JFB New Member

    Jul 25, 2005
    5 to 7 paces works for be.


    the bug has already got you, ;)
     

  3. downhill

    downhill New Member

    82
    Jul 2, 2008
    There actually is some method to my madness. I'm coming to the opinion that a standard blade/notch sight is of little use on thse guns. At say 21 feet you would be better off with a sighting device that helped you point rather than helped you aim. Does that make sense? I'm playing with a couple of concepts for a sighting device that will be "point-bang" but will also allow more deliberate aiming without going blind trying to align an itty bitty blade and notch.

    I'm trying to get a feel for what guys are seeing with their existing setups. I bought a laser for one gun, but I want some iron option for the other, and I think I may have it. I'm wondering though, if having any sort of adjustment is even needed. If the factory sights are basically good because of the short range, that would make the job easier.

    David
     
  4. twyacht

    twyacht New Member

    58
    May 19, 2008
  5. JFB

    JFB New Member

    Jul 25, 2005
    While I practice with no sights, just point and shoot.  I would think a micro dot sight would be great.  I've invision a thin tube on the front slide with a le inside the tube at the muzzle end that would only be visible to the shooter when the tube was in alignment

    Only one post away from access to the top secert files :cool:
     
  6. BillK

    BillK New Member

    898
    Jul 23, 2007
    Downhill,

    I agree with you about the sights being of little use on "th[e]se guns". IMHO a gutter type sight would be more than sufficient. From my reading and studying, thankfully not from personal experience, I've learned that the sights on hand guns are not even used in most up close shoot outs (and I understand most shoot outs are up close). For SD purposes you're more likely to benifit from what you called "point-bang" practice than sighted practice. Perfecting shooting as you move/explode off the mark, at varing distances, would be a smart thing to work on.


    Take care...
     
  7. Possumgravy

    Possumgravy Guest

    Point-Bang. That's why I like a laser.
     
  8. adamsesq

    adamsesq New Member

    Dec 25, 2006
    A generalization that I have in mind but have not thought through completely is that if you have to (or have time to) aim then you need to think long and hard about whether you really need to (or should) take that shot.

    Thoughts?

    -Scott
     
  9. downhill

    downhill New Member

    82
    Jul 2, 2008
    JFB,
    Exactly! The prototype I'm working on is very similar to what you describe. It's a 1.5" length of 3/8" aluminum tube with a 5/16" ID. The tube is matt black with a high viz luminous coating on the rear edge of the tube. You can instantly see when you look down the tube whether you are aligned or not. Because of perspective, you will see the inside back end of the tube appear as a black ring inside the hi viz ring. If that inside ring is centered, then the gun is perfectly aligned. For accurate fire that should result in very good precision. You shoot with both eyes open and center the target inside the tube (ring). It is also very fast, in fact, you can shoot by simply putting the target inside the hi viz ring and ignore the front ring alignment and still get good accuracy in a stress fire situation. At 21 feet, the tube is about a 5"circle which is a kill zone or a head shot. It gives you a bright eye catching aimpoint. To the shooters eye the tube appears as a ring around the target. My prototype is mounted on the rear half of the slide to make holstering easier. I've also rounded the profile of the tube which doesn't matter because from the back it is still just a ring.

    Your scenario uses a similar concept but you would use a very thin tube, possibly with a tritium ampule at the end. It would be deployed similar to a front sight only except it would also provide alignment where a front sight alone would not. The only drawback to that arrangement (and I could be wrong) is that if you throw up the gun and do not see the dot, you have to go searching which takes precious milliseconds. The ring on my sight is always there, you just have a choice as to how much you refine the sight picture.

    Anyway, I'll do a complete write up on this once I evaluate it thoroughly and have a nice finished piece to photograph. I'm going to use a stopwatch to compare the deployment time of the iron sights, tube sight, laser sight, and no sight. Even the laser requires some work and time to deploy. Of course the target score has to be included too. Simply making noise isn't personal defense. That's why all the famed gunfighters from the old west used aimed fire.

    I'd still like to know how far off the majority of these guns are. I have one and another on the way, but that's a small sample. The more help I get the better!

    Hey, I'm a real member now! :cool:

    David
     
  10. RAT76

    RAT76 Active Member

    Aug 21, 2006
    Oklahoma
    That's pretty much the way I look at it. When folks start talking about needing their carry weapon to be accurate a long distances (IMO over 25 feet or so) I say that they should be running away. My P3 (oops! don't have a P3 any more but any way) is my get the #@%**&% off of me gun. If you are aiming & shooting at longer distances that's not self defense, it's hunting.

    JMO & YMMV of course.
     
  11. JFB

    JFB New Member

    Jul 25, 2005
    I wonder if a long tappered tube is available that would augment the perspective effect, but to reduce the "search time" if not in alignment, the tube diameter has to increase so "first" picture provides feedback info for correction needed

    Congrates on post 26
     
  12. downhill

    downhill New Member

    82
    Jul 2, 2008
    I guess it all comes down to how you define "aiming", but one way or another you have to direct a shot to the target or else the whole exercise is for nothing. For me at least, it's pretty tough to reliably hit a kill zone even at 10 feet without making some effort to direct the bullet. Isn't that "aiming"? Even when you look at the miss to hit ratio of LEOs under the stress of combat, the success rate is pretty low. That's with a full size handgun in the hands of a trained professional. Take a confrontation involving possibly multiple attackers, and possibly collateral injury and the need for controlled fire goes up even higher. In any case, that really isn't the topic. I'm just wondering what range people think is reasonable for these guns. I haven't decided for myself, but the end decision will be based on how well I can place rounds at that maximum range. It may end up 5 feet or it may end up 50 feet. I don't know yet, but that's the question I'm asking.

    David
     
  13. downhill

    downhill New Member

    82
    Jul 2, 2008
    JFB,
    That's an excellent observation. You could make a tapered hole by using a tapered reamer. I just happen to have one that size too.

    "the tube diameter has to increase so "first" picture provides feedback info for correction needed"

    Exactly!

    David
     
  14. adamsesq

    adamsesq New Member

    Dec 25, 2006
    The difference, in my mind, is aligning the sights v. point shooting.  

    As this started as a thread about the sights and/or making better sights I am only posing the hypothesis that if you are using the sights at all you might want to think twice about taking the shot?  Which then leads to whether there is benefit in making the sights better?  I don't suggest an answer, only pose the questions.  

    One of the best sight modifications I have seen is the fiber optic light tube (Hi Viz?) in place of the front sight. It looked like it would have really fast acquisition if you were using the sights.

    -Scott
     
  15. downhill

    downhill New Member

    82
    Jul 2, 2008
    I understand Scott. If you don't use sights, then having better ones is a mute point. Having good sights gives me confidence. I also realize that I'm far more likely to use the weapon to dispatch a snake than a human so the ability to "aim" is imporatnt to me. If the question is whether we should even be talking about sights, then I'm fine if the Mods want to pull the thread. I'm new here and I don't know all the ground rules so it won't bother me a bit.

    David
     
  16. adamsesq

    adamsesq New Member

    Dec 25, 2006
    Don't get the wrong idea, your thread is awesome and the idea is great. I just am throwing out some related fodder for discussion to keep some perspective.

    No problem with "talking" about most anything here as long as it stays civil. About the only things I can say are not generally accepted are personal attacks, unbased "what if" scenarios, and plain old KT bashing.

    -Scott
     
  17. JFB

    JFB New Member

    Jul 25, 2005
    First point is something I have found myself changing my mind about the P3AT. besides a SD weapon It has become my kit or garden gun too. Since it is just so easy to have with you, I no longer think about getting out the HS double nine for snakes and mice. (however I guess I would go get the 1911 if I encounter beaver)

    Second point.. the reason for the 25 post limit before joining the group in heated discussions in the counter, one needs to get a feel for the personalities here. like Scott replied, this is a pretty easy going group, that will let you know their opinion. the big thing the group has little tolerance for is any personnal attacks, fictional essays on being in a SD situation, bashing KT, and mentioning that other gun ;)
     
  18. fatman

    fatman New Member

    Apr 6, 2005
    How you train with a laser is very important IMHO. What I do and tell others to do is to present the gun with laser on over and over and memorize the appearance of the gun when looking over the top of it at the laser dot. Next present the gun without the laser on and sight using the silhouette of the gun as a guide and then checking accuracy with the laser. Keep repeating until you can get a reasonable level of accuracy with this weapon silhouette method of sighting. You can learn this at home. You need to practice until it is second nature.

    Now when you present the weapon you will be roughly on target without the laser and with the laser on you will be able to make precise aiming adjustments rapidly if needed. You reach the point where the alignment of the gun is done subconsciously while your attention is on the target.

    Before you light me up let me say that I had a fair amount of bullseye experience in my youth and know the importance of focusing on the sights when shooting at a stationary target. This is still how I start those I teach until we are ready to consider combat style shooting.

    When you are fighting a mobile enemy and hopefully using defensive movement yourself you must focus on your target. If you don't you will be shooting nice little groups where he used to be not where he will be when the bullet arrives. It is normal human nature to move, duck and dodge when being shot at. Expect it and train for it. The best training I had was shooting moving rabbits, it's great if you can safely do it.

    I should mention that the other thing that needs to be addressed in training with a laser is to counter the tendency to try to make very precise shots when the situation doesn't require them simply because precise aiming with a laser is possible. Train to get your shots into the vital zone as quickly as possible. Get comfortable with seeing the laser dot bouncing all over the target zone and concentrate on good trigger control to make shots that are "good enough" instead of "perfect" as quickly as possible.

    As far as range goes I do at least 90% of my practice at 21 feet or less because in my limited experience with BGs they are poor shots and try to engage you at ranges of 8 feet or less if they can. At such close range they are very dangerous. If you can maintain good situational awareness and prevent them from approaching you within 21 feet most of them will be uncomfortable enough that they will look for another target.

    Practice situational awareness constantly. Most BGs will test you by trying to approach closely and by assessing how you respond. If you show by your actions you are aware of what is going on they will usually give it up and look for someone else. Unless they are completely crazy they are looking for an easy score not a life and death fight.
     
  19. BillK

    BillK New Member

    898
    Jul 23, 2007
    Fatman,

      Everything you posted makes a lot of sense to me. My P3AT and my Glock 26 are not, primarily, for shooting bulleyes; I've got scoped revolvers and a rifle and even my percusion BP rifle for for putting (well trying anyways  :)) bullets in a single hole.

      I'm getting more and more interested in maybe trying a laser on one of my P3Ats. Don't know if carrying with one is something I'd want to do but it seems like a laser, used properly as you pointed out, could make a great training aid.


    Thanks...  
     
  20. Did any one notice that the Ruger LCP and the Kel-Tec 3AT have basically the same sight set up?   ;)


    Using my CTC Laser on my 3AT at 21 feet :

    [​IMG]

    The laser is a tremendous + for my tired old eyes.