Discussion in 'P-3AT' started by Ogre, May 17, 2011.

  1. Ogre

    Ogre New Member

    Dec 17, 2010
    In late-April 2011, a deputy with the Johnson County Sheriff's Department (Texas) was shot and killed by a .380, wielded by a man from Oklahoma. The deputy was one of three law enforcement officers who were responding to a domestic violence call in an area well-known for drug activity. Upon arriving on the scene, they were told that the man in question was armed and had fled to a nearby shed. The three officers attempted to enter the shed. The deputy who was killed was the first man in, and was shot three times: Once in the throat, once in the side, and once in the back. The throat shot took him out of the fight immediately, the shot in the side bounced off a bone and entered the heart, and the shot in the back hit muscle; the round that entered the deputy's heart was the fatal shot. The other officers returned fire, and the gunman was killed. I had met the deputy a couple of times... he was a good guy.

    I've debated posting this, but some of the rantings I've seen on other forums have me a bit concerned that many of us need some reality checks. This tragic incident can be used as learning lesson, and hopefully it will serve to remind some people that deploying a firearm and using it is not a game or script for an action movie.

    1) Obviously. .380 is a lethal round and adequate for self defense. If you put in the time on the range and become proficient with your .380 pistol, you will be able to master it and you will be able to adequately defend yourself with it. Even if it does not inflict an instantly fatal wound, it will deliver a wound that will take the aggressor out of the fight and allow you to retreat to a position of safety.

    2) An ordinary day can easily turn sour and can end with someone not coming home to a loved one. The decision to carry a firearm and the responsibility that decision carries is deadly serious. A gun is not a fashion statement, a scenario in which you may need to use it is not a video game, and the decision to deploy and use that weapon is a very serious decision indeed. As such, that decision had better be damned well considered because you can be held accountable under the law for recklessly using your weapon, and you will be if it is determined that you acted recklessly.

    3) Do not rush into any tactical situation. I've seen forum commandos flippantly tossing about shooting scenarios, and talking about "saving the day" without first ascertaining the actual situation. In this case, three trained officers decided to "John Wayne" a shed, despite:
    a) They were responding to a call about a domestic violence situation, which means that the situation was tense from the get go and that situation had a greater than average chance of violence;
    b) They knew the guy was armed, and that he had holed-up in the shed (a fortified position);
    c) They knew the guy had been in an area for several days, and the area was well-known for methamphetamine use so there was a good possibility the "bad guy" had been amped-up and tweaking for an extended period of time thus greatly increasing the chances that he was highly agitated and in such an irrational state of mind that he would be far more likely to actually use the gun he was packing;
    d) They knew nothing about the lay-out of the shed, they apparently did not stop to consider that the first guy through the door stood a good possibility of being shot, they apparently did not consider whether the now secured gunman was actually a threat to anybody at this point, and they apparently did not consider calling for back-up.
    -- So, what happened is, in essence, that the officers acted without considering whether the situation was safe, without knowing whether the action was even necessary,without knowing the emotional or physical state of the "bad guy." and without a full appreciation of the physical aspects of the scene. Two people are now dead, and many more lives are shattered... and it probably could have been resolved without violence if a more well-considered approach had been taken.

    What does this mean for us, as armed citizens? It means we need to be ready to use our weapons if a situation goes south, and then we need to really consider that situation before we clear leather and pull a Captain America. What does this mean for us P3AT owners? It means that .380 will serve us well, assuming we take the time to be proficient on it and bear in mind that discretion and prudence are the better parts of valor.

    A deputy and a man from Oklahoma are dead. We need to honor the officer for his dedication, and we need to do all we can to ensure that we don't join them, or dispatch another to do so.
  2. oldgranpa

    oldgranpa New Member

    Sep 23, 2004
    thank you, Ogre, for posting that story. While we don't know the type ammo the villian used, FMJ or JHP, it does show that .380 can be lethal.

  3. CJP32

    CJP32 Active Member

    Jul 24, 2008
    Very thoughtful post Ogre. I agree with all your observations.

    I'm very sad to hear of the LEO's death.

  4. BillK

    BillK New Member

    Jul 23, 2007
    Thanks for sharing. It is a shame that we learn from an incident having such a tragic ending for one the the good guys.

    Bill K.
  5. proheromk1

    proheromk1 New Member

    Feb 18, 2010
    Why anyone would question the lethality of any bullet has always been beyond me. Shot placement is key. preaching to the chir i guess.
  6. lokin4deer

    lokin4deer Member

    Jul 18, 2009
    Thank you for posting that. May the LEO RIP :'(
  7. billjohnso20

    billjohnso20 Well-Known Member

    Dec 7, 2008
    Just like there are a lot of gun snobs in this world, there are also a lot of caliber snobs too. Anytime I hear these people disrespecting those of us who do not agree with them, I like to ask them if they're willing to be shot with my "Mickey Mouse gun." I've never had any takers who had the fortitude to prove their snide remarks by agreeing to be shot. :-? :-? Ogre, you're right, shot placement and proficiency are key regardless of caliber. After all, the last magic bullet ever made in this country is the one that killed Pres. Kennedy.

    In reality, everyone has calibers they like and dislike. I personally don't care for 32ACP, 38 Special, or 22LR. However, I have a brace of NAA minis in 22Mag that I carry from time to time. I greatly prefer the more powerful 9mm Luger to 38 Special. Shoot, I even traded my .357 Mag revolver on a CZ-82 in 9x18 Mak. About a year and a half ago, I bought my first 32 caliber handgun. It's a stainless steel Taurus revolver in .327 Fed Mag. And yes, with the Speer Gold Dot 115gr that use a small rifle primer instead of a small pistol primer, the little 6 shot solid steel revolver has more recoil than my PF-9 does with considerably more energy. :eek: :eek:

    Basically, any bullet fired from any gun can be fatal. There are no magic calibers loaded with magic bullets that will kill a bad guy even if the bullet complete misses him. Yes, I actually heard a Rambo type at the range a few years ago say he carried a 1911 in .45ACP because he wanted the bullet to scare whomever he shot at to death just in case he missed!!! ;D ;D ;D Unfortunately, such snobs will always exist.

    The sad thing of course is when an innocent person loses his or her life. The LEOs in the story Ogre references made a fatal error in judgment. As a result someones son, husband?, daddy? didn't go home after work. All of us should pray for the LEOs where we live. Like teachers, LEOs are under appreciated. Yes, some LEOs are bad but most are honest citizens who are trying to maker the world a safer place to live. Like our troops, we should stop a LEO every so often and thank them for the job they do.

    I know there are a lot of folks that like to bash LEOs but you won't hear me do it. Criticize when it's needed? Yes. Bash? No way!
  8. CJP32

    CJP32 Active Member

    Jul 24, 2008
    Thank you Preacher. :)
    I enjoy it when someone tells me thank you.

  9. jpaul

    jpaul Member

    Apr 23, 2008
    I read one time a good while back that, excluding war, more people had been killed by a .22 than any other caliber. If this is true, the .22 and anything from there on up has my respect. Heck, they all have my respect even if its not true.
  10. I am defanitly one who belives the gun and ammo you have with you are tons better then the one you don't have with you. I have carried everything from .22 to .45 Mag.

    Life is a compromise, and so are your choices for a self defense weapon.

    There is no caliber that Can Not Kill, and No Caliber That Will Kill 100% of the time.

    I have seen medical record of a single .44 Mag to the head. The young lady lived.

    I have seen the record of a single .22LR to the torso. Young man past away.

    There are so many variables that effect the outcome that it becomes an endless discussion.

    Be confidant in what you carry. Be practiced with it. And be safe with it. And hope you never need to find out if it really will get you out of trouble.

    But when someone tells me oh, you carry such and such for self defense? Don't you know that ain't going to stop no one... I always ask them to prove it by coming at me and letting me shoot them just once.. No one has ever taken me up on it (hope they never will). But it showed I have more belief in my carry choice then they have in their opinion about it.

    I bet if i carried a rubber band gun, they would take me up on it to prove a rubber band gun, ain't no real gun!

    Even if every mother out there tells you you can take someones eye out with it :p
  11. gbarber010

    gbarber010 New Member

    Jun 21, 2005
    Prattville, AL
    As a Law Enforcement Officer, I know we make mistakes. It not hard in any job to get lazy and make mistakes. I always try to take situations like this as learning experiences. Yes those Officers made a grave mistake and should have handled it differently. Have I made mistakes like that, in my 20 years of service, yes I have and I've been lucky. Well, thanks for the post and all the comments. Just posting this has got me to thinking more about officer safety. thanks
  12. JerryK

    JerryK New Member

    Apr 22, 2010
    Thanks for sharing, Ogre. Some lessons I took away from this: 1) Adrenalin, if left unchecked, can impair good judgement; (2) It doesn't matter what caliber you have nor what the BG has so much as who gets the drop on whom.

    May that LEO Rest In Peace and his family find solace somewhere.

  13. gordon11

    gordon11 Well-Known Member

    Dec 30, 2007
    To our LEOs: Thanks and be careful.

    Good post.
    I've been in a defensive situation and used a firearm to protect myself and, oddly enough, on the same day, witnessed a neighbor do the same in a completely separate incident. In both of our cases we were inadequately armed. Mine was 5 shot snubby; his was a lowly .25. We're both still here, I believe, as a result of divine intervention coupled with a discernable intent to do whatever was necessary.
    I've witnessed 3 shootings in my lifetime and been on the scene immediately after 2 others. One thing I'm certain of, little is hard and true fact when it comes to bullet effectiveness. There are no magic death rays but my P3AT is always with me. Hope I never have to use it but I know taking it seriously is half the battle.
  14. billjohnso20

    billjohnso20 Well-Known Member

    Dec 7, 2008
    Thank you Preacher.    :)
    I enjoy it when someone tells me thank you.

    You're welcome and thank you for all you do.
  15. Grantspastor

    Grantspastor New Member

    Oct 4, 2009
    Thanks for posting. Sure sorry to hear about the LEO's death
  16. bh153dc

    bh153dc New Member

    So sorry to hear about the LEO, my condolences go out to his family. In my 17 years in the military, with some certainty, you usually have a good idea where the enemy is through intel or other means. Lately it has been more challenging but the indicators are usually still there. I have numberous LEO friends in city and county departments. These guys and gals are the true heros. Working for riduclously low pay, never truly knowing who is a friend or foe on the street. A good lesson to be learned here! Thanks for posting!
  17. P250UA5

    P250UA5 New Member

    Sep 12, 2011
    Spring, TX
    Sad to hear about any of the good guys going down.
    There was a thread on another forum about a pawn shop owner that got attacked by a customer with a sword. He got stabbed a few times & cut up pretty bad. Took down the customer with a .25, 4 shots to the right eye.
    Gives a lot of weight to shot placement.
  18. Tripwire

    Tripwire New Member

    Feb 18, 2011
    I think as tool users we tend to tunnel vision on our tools, forgetting that the problem is the human, and humans are tough, yet fragile. That takes you down roads into thinking about humans as machines and how to stop them, then the realization comes that they can suck up trauma like a sponge, or take a crucial hit from a small item and unfortunately pass away like the LEO did. They are unpredictable, fast, and very dangerous. I don't think anyone should be underestimated. Sadly when you deal with people for a long time without a lot of violent behavior, or at least the threat never arrives, you become complacent. It can happen to anyone. Being vigilant all the time is exhausting.

    It's a shame the death of the LEO serves as a lesson to everyone else, but it's also a truth that in organizations, especially government at all levels, that's what it takes to change behavior.