[Xanth]

So I put a bid on an RFB on Gunbroker... it was a no reserve and I put a ridiculously low maximum bid of $1000. It's a gun that would go for 1200 at a sane store trying to sell off stuff to forestall bankrupcy...on a bad day. Two days later I get an E-mail "YOU WON"... well look at that. I've had my eye on this gun for a couple of years, and now it's mine.

It sold for $870, which goes to show you that you should never have an auction end on a sunday because that means only heathens such as myself would be able to actually bid on the thing ha ha ha.

So I have... well I have a few legitimate questions:

1 - How often do you guys run into gas issues? I was military and we dont really run into this whole "change gas pressure" issue. An M-16 either works or it jams, is this something that can realistically be used continuously or should I be really knowledgeable in what manufacturer and type of 308 I throw in this thing?

2 - Magazines. The rifle comes with an original mag, which I assume is probably DSA and two FAL mags (based solely on how used they look). Do you guys recommend going Thermould (sp?), factory new or just grabbing surplus FAL mags or other? Anyone got any good recommendations for a decent 25-30 round mag thats compatible?

3 - Suppressors. I have a few for other calibers and I love them. Movies ruined suppressors and what they actually accomplish. They're supposed to make it harder to determine where a shot is coming from, basically a flash suppressor +1 or stopping you from blowing your own ears out indoors or just being generally deaf from outdoors use. Who's put them on their rigs, who do they trust for threaded barrels etc? And what can did they put on, if they did, who had generally a good experience with them?

4 - Rails - Whats your guys experience with add-on rails? I saw Kel-Tec had some decent quad rails for sale, whats the quality? Worth it?

5 - Glass - So I read through a couple of threads. I'll ask again because there's new scopes on the market and I'm here to talk to those who have seen and done (not paid by some random magazine). Preferably looking for some glass that has some BCD factored in. I know Primary Arms does a 5x glass thats ok, Of course we will always need to mention the gods "Trijicon, Nikon, Leupold (espirito sante etc etc)." For a good 300-600 yard piece of glass, what have you gentlemen (and ladies!) used that works? I am used to Trijicon, if I need to I'll spend the $1100 (cry)... if I need to, but if there's something out there that does a 90% job for 1/2 the cost why kill myself right?
-Additionally, 45* Off-angle red dots, anyone used them for the RFB? If so, what did you use and who did you trust for the railing? Did it stay relatively good?

Issues - I know that some get lemons and some get just fantastic guns, anyone got any specific tips or tell-tales to highlight a possible issue down the road? Appreciated in advance, beers are on me of course!

I came here because those that are in the know said this was a great forum to go to for answers and from my research they were absolutely right. I'm open arms here and want your guys advice, you've spent the time on the ranges and you're the experts on this beautiful piece of hardware.

V/R

 

[TNC]

You asked some good specific questions. I'll make a general statement first. The majority of these rifles produced in the GenII era seem to work with little fuss. However, there's probably a more-than-normally-acceptable number of issues for a weapon in this price range.

You mention the adjustable gas. It is probably one of the bonuses and pitfalls of this gun, and I don't consider it a manufacturing issue. In many cases it's a user error...not always...but in many cases. For some, the more options you provide to induce cycling failure in a weapon, the more failures you will encounter. I have no hard numbers on my statement, but I know a lot of users may indeed have limited understanding of the relationship between ammo, conditions, and gas adjustment. Just go look on ar15.com to see examples on a weapon platform that's been around forever. Often when you give people too many choices, you provide too many ways to screw things up.

Your M16 analogy refers to a situation of a fairly specific gun that has some armorer oversight and maintenance, and those guns were probably all overgassed. When you try to compare an M16 to a bullpup platform...especially one in a .308 caliber, you have other elements and components present and not present that complicate things. For one, I think the lack of a buffer system that is present in the AR design is a little bit of a detriment to most all bullpup designs IMO. It's just the nature of the beast in the location of the action set back further back in the gun which pretty much prohibits a large, tunable, buffer system. Most bullpups have to rely on recoil spring(s) and a dinky buffer pad of some kind. Overgassed AR's will eventually wear out, no question about it, but bullpups will tend to break things quickly if overgassed. Therefore more critical gas control is pretty much required.

To be fair to Kel-Tec, one has to admit that they made a huge leap to produce a .308 bullpup. It's not quite in the same engineering venue as a 5.56/.223 bullpup which is no easy task either. I think the current delays in Desert Tech's MDR .308 is probably based on this same issue. Besides the problems of dealing with a .308 bullpup design, the RFB didn't/doesn't benefit from being a platform that was created and developed for military applications like the Tavor, AUG, and some other bullpups. A small company with no military development funds or contracts should be lauded for their pursuit of such an impressive gun despite some of the resulting issues.

On your magazine observation, I'm surprised your rifle came with what may be two actual FAL magazines. I take it that this wasn't a used rifle?...or maybe I missed it in the post. Magazine availability and issues have been one of the major complaints with the RFB. You'll get praise and condemnation all over the board about success and failure with the mags that are available. My 20-round DSA mags have worked without issue. Others have had nothing but trouble. Interestingly, it's apparent that not all of these DSA mags are the same...slightly different followers, small differences in the magazine body, etc...so who knows. Mine came with one Thermold mag. It works but don't leave it direct sunlight or high heat...like in a closed vehicle in Texas. It's not a Magpul polymer mag. I have ordered a Moses FAL mag that is at least equal or better than Magpul quality construction, but it requires some removal of a small bump/rib or three to fit the tighter RFB mag well. I shall see. It would be great if Magpul made FAL mags, but I doubt it will happen.

Suppressors?...the barrel is already threaded for traditional .308 sized 5/8X24 threads, so that's not a problem. I haven't attached my suppressor...Silencerco Hybrid...to my RFB yet. You may have to prepare for quite a bit of putzing with the gas adjust and perhaps even obtaining another gas piston to get full satisfactory operation.

As far as optics go, my personal observation with the standard barrel length RFB...not the 24" Hunter version...is that a good 3-9 power scope is more than adequate for the accuracy potential of the RFB...maybe even up to something like a 4-16. I think anything else is a waste. This gun is not a Ruger Precision Rifle. However, this is an area with some decent personal preference, so it's your money for your application. I would say that this is already a heavy rifle, so maybe it's a good idea not to install a huge, heavy optic. I'm running a Burris 3-9X40 scope with a tiny Burris Fastfire III mounted atop one of the Burris scope mount caps. For me, it's a bullpup...I want at least to have a true red dot capability for all the urban warfare and building clearing that I do with this rifle...LOL! Again...this is that area of personal preference, so have fun with it.

Lastly, this is relatively slow moving part of the forum, so it's not too hard to read back in recent history to get a feel for all the good, bad, and ugly...and in many cases the successful solutions to problems. Take the time to read back a few pages.

 

[ronmar]

+1. Great summary!

Set the gas! This as TNC mentioned is this rifles greatest asset and at the same time it's achilles heel. Set properly it is hands down the softest most comfortable to shoot 7.62 I have ever fired. Because we fielded so many questions here on gas settings, I did a how-to video up in the FAQ section of this forum. It is number 21 I think. I look at changing gas a lot like changing sight dope when you change ammo. It is just a little more important on this gun. This gun only has 1/2" of overtravel beyond where the bolt locks opening and vitually no buffering. Overgassing is to be avoided like the plague! This gun's short length screams for a supressor, but the gas system might give you issues gettng it tuned to run properly with a can. Some have had to go as far as modifying a stock piston to get it adjusted correctly with a can.

As for scope, I use a 1.1-5 leupold mark 4 MRT in an ADM Recon-S mount. Very solid setup and the MRT reticle zeroed at 100 gives me bullet drop marks out to 500 yards...

 

[BlakeHanson]

It sold for $870, which goes to show you that you should never have an auction end on a sunday because that means only heathens such as myself would be able to actually bid on the thing ha ha ha.

You lucky B-B-B-Bastage!
You're going to love it. Most guys here wouldn't part with their scuffed-up, well-used one(s) for current MSRP

.
I've bought several guns well below market price using what I call "bottom-feeding", where I expand the search to include auctions that are missing certain keywords in the title that keep them from showing up in a normal search, are in the wrong category, etc.
So I'm sure your hit was probably more than just luck.
I waited 3 years for the Hunter variant to appear and got one for top dollar when it came onto the market. I have a 3x9 and a brake on it and can shoot it all day:machinegunner:.
Many threads here on suppressor usage. As stated, just screwing one on will leave the RFB overgassed and parts will break. It's not that hard to get it right.

If those scruffy surplus mags don't match your style, I'll swap you shiny new plastic ones for them

.

P.s. One thing you can be sure of: the seller is not happy!
Edit: the 30 round mags don't work well- too much spring pressure on the bolt when they are full. (and they are REALLY heavy).

 

[Deinodontosaurus]

So I put a bid on an RFB on Gunbroker... it was a no reserve and I put a ridiculously low maximum bid of $1000. It's a gun that would go for 1200 at a sane store trying to sell off stuff to forestall bankrupcy...on a bad day. Two days later I get an E-mail "YOU WON"... well look at that. I've had my eye on this gun for a couple of years, and now it's mine.

It sold for $870, which goes to show you that you should never have an auction end on a sunday because that means only heathens such as myself would be able to actually bid on the thing ha ha ha.

So I have... well I have a few legitimate questions:

1 - How often do you guys run into gas issues? I was military and we dont really run into this whole "change gas pressure" issue. An M-16 either works or it jams, is this something that can realistically be used continuously or should I be really knowledgeable in what manufacturer and type of 308 I throw in this thing?

2 - Magazines. The rifle comes with an original mag, which I assume is probably DSA and two FAL mags (based solely on how used they look). Do you guys recommend going Thermould (sp?), factory new or just grabbing surplus FAL mags or other? Anyone got any good recommendations for a decent 25-30 round mag thats compatible?

3 - Suppressors. I have a few for other calibers and I love them. Movies ruined suppressors and what they actually accomplish. They're supposed to make it harder to determine where a shot is coming from, basically a flash suppressor +1 or stopping you from blowing your own ears out indoors or just being generally deaf from outdoors use. Who's put them on their rigs, who do they trust for threaded barrels etc? And what can did they put on, if they did, who had generally a good experience with them?

4 - Rails - Whats your guys experience with add-on rails? I saw Kel-Tec had some decent quad rails for sale, whats the quality? Worth it?

5 - Glass - So I read through a couple of threads. I'll ask again because there's new scopes on the market and I'm here to talk to those who have seen and done (not paid by some random magazine). Preferably looking for some glass that has some BCD factored in. I know Primary Arms does a 5x glass thats ok, Of course we will always need to mention the gods "Trijicon, Nikon, Leupold (espirito sante etc etc)." For a good 300-600 yard piece of glass, what have you gentlemen (and ladies!) used that works? I am used to Trijicon, if I need to I'll spend the $1100 (cry)... if I need to, but if there's something out there that does a 90% job for 1/2 the cost why kill myself right?
-Additionally, 45* Off-angle red dots, anyone used them for the RFB? If so, what did you use and who did you trust for the railing? Did it stay relatively good?

Issues - I know that some get lemons and some get just fantastic guns, anyone got any specific tips or tell-tales to highlight a possible issue down the road? Appreciated in advance, beers are on me of course!

I came here because those that are in the know said this was a great forum to go to for answers and from my research they were absolutely right. I'm open arms here and want your guys advice, you've spent the time on the ranges and you're the experts on this beautiful piece of hardware.

V/R

Hi Xanth !

You are getting the VERY BEST of the VERY BEST advice from among the MOST VERY BEST and knowledgeable and experienced people within this forum . However , I'm not one of them ! But I can tell you a little about magazines for your RFB ! Just go over to the Bullpup Forum . com after you have read this , enter the section which covers the Kel-Tec RFB and RDB , scroll down and see the magazine offer there . It should catch your eyes !

 

[okstatefan]

1. I followed ronmar's gas setup on my first range trip and had it adjusted in about the same number of rounds it took to zero the scope. I think I'm at b+21 and it has been running the few different 7.62x51 loads I have on hand with no issues.

2. My rifle shipped with the Thermold magazine. It has been flawless for about 260 rounds. I actually ordered five more Thermold, but have only used one of those five so far.

3. No idea on suppressor setup. I may get into it at some point, but haven't wanted to deal with the NFA runaround.

4. I'm not a fan of the barrel rail, but I do think I'll add the bottom rail section at some point. I think I'd like a stubby VFG, as I don't really bench shoot with the RFB.

5. I'm running a Bushnell Tactical Elite 1-6.5 FFP. It's perfect for my uses, but might be a little short on the high-end for someone wanting to stretch the RFB out. I have an M&P 10 for long range shooting, so I'll keep the RFB for 400yd and under.

Good luck with the setup and give us a range report once you've got it dialed in.

 

[henshao]

Your particular military experience might have precluded mucking with gas settings but think about all those poor souls who were issued a FAL in their service

 

[Wraith0513]

YMMV, but when I installed the quad rail and the extension to be able to mount a farther forward front sight, I found that it was canted and not straight, pretty visible to the naked eye. I ended up taking the extension off.

 

[Grummelbaer]

Good day, gents. I purchased my RFB in December, not at as low a price as Xanth, but with a military discount (Retarded Army) I got it new out the door at $1506 after taxes.

I bought some pop-up iron sights just to get started and quickly learned the short distance from rear to front sights was inadequate for iron sights, so off they came. I'm using a 4x ACOG (it's what I know) with .308 reticle (gauged out to 800m) and am having a bitch of a time zeroing. Tried laser bore sighting; that only works in low vis and only if there is no play in the laser, so I learned how difficult it is to fit a bullpup into a vise!

After reading this thread I am pretty certain I should adjust the gas to reduce recoil, which might aid some. Like Xanth, I'm used to rifles that have no gas adjustment so this is uncharted territory for me; the only adjustable gas weapon I've ever used was the M-249 SAW and that was a quarter century ago. So I will go watch TNC's video next.

My question is bipod adaptability: does the wisdom of the forum recommend a bipod and/or mounting preference? I am considering the bottom rail kit and a picatinny bipod, but I'd like to hear any advice y'all might have.

 

[BlakeHanson]

My question is bipod adaptability: does the wisdom of the forum recommend a bipod and/or mounting preference? I am considering the bottom rail kit and a picatinny bipod, but I'd like to hear any advice y'all might have.

If the RFB's a carbine, the rifle is so short you pretty-much don't need one.
It would be just extra weight to carry around and I bet it would always stay folded up and make it hard to get a grip on the fore-end.
On an AR-10: a bipod is essential.

 

[Xanth]

I'm back!

Hello one and all,

Thanks for the all the help gents! I apologize, I got stuck on a business trip that just didn't want to end and then life happening etc etc.


So! Here's what I went with.... I slapped on a Primary Arms multi zoom optic on it with their ballistic drop indicator on there, it works phenomenally. After initial zero I was hitting my 18" gong with different types of ammo up to 450 yards with no issues.

The gas settings... After reading the manual and listening to you fine upstanding citizens I can definitely see what you're talking about. After dialing in the gas it has just Zero appreciable recoil in comparison to a similar 308 such as an M1A with a walnut stock.

My only complaint (such as it is) is the personality of the gun. I've got a chance to see two other RFBs while I took mine to the range and each just plays slightly differently. Same ammo, but the recoil felt different, and even during breakdown they each had their own points where it was a bitch and a half to fully disassemble. Mines the inside stock takedown bolt, for whatever reason it's half science and half pleading to get the bolt to go through the frame. Other than that, no complaints. I'm in love. It's hands down better than a favor. And sure it won't beat a competition M1A at the range but the gun wasn't designed to do that!

Thanks again guys for the help. I have attached it's current config below.

 

[Xanth]

 

[henshao]

When reassembling the RFB, in my experience it is the recoil spring's tension which can make reinserting the takedown pins difficult. I apply pressure to the pin in question, then gently apply rearward pressure on the bolt handle to relieve the spring's tension. The pin will often pop right in when the correct amount of tension is relieved.

 

[BlakeHanson]

.
I have attached it's current config below.

Does it look like this?:

 

[Xanth]

Lol yes Blake.... It's almost like you grabbed that from my imgur page haha.

 

[okstatefan]

It looks like more than one of us has similar ideas about how to run the RFB. My scope is a Bushnell Elite Tactical 1-6.5 BTR-1 FFP. The sling is a VTAC.

 

[Xanth]

From owner of a sexy gun to another, well done sir. I prefer the tan, it looks good! How's the Bushnell treating you?

 

[okstatefan]

From owner of a sexy gun to another, well done sir. I prefer the tan, it looks good! How's the Bushnell treating you?

The glass is excellent and the reticle is pretty good. The mistake I made was getting the FFP. When at 1x, the reticle basically turns into a red dot. Not that that is a terrible thing, but I would have preferred an SFP on this particular reticle. It is heavier than some of the more reasonably priced scopes, but it doesn't bother me on the RFB. I haven't dialed out past 300yd, but it has tracked accurately the few times I've had to spin the turrets. At the price I paid, I would buy it again. At retail, I'd look at something from SWFA or Vortex in the same price range; maybe even a few hundred cheaper.

 

[Pengiep]

I'm back!

Hello one and all,

Thanks for the all the help gents! I apologize, I got stuck on a business trip that just didn't want to end and then life happening etc etc.


So! Here's what I went with.... I slapped on a Primary Arms multi zoom optic on it with their ballistic drop indicator on there, it works phenomenally. After initial zero I was hitting my 18" gong with different types of ammo up to 450 yards with no issues.

The gas settings... After reading the manual and listening to you fine upstanding citizens I can definitely see what you're talking about. After dialing in the gas it has just Zero appreciable recoil in comparison to a similar 308 such as an M1A with a walnut stock.

My only complaint (such as it is) is the personality of the gun. I've got a chance to see two other RFBs while I took mine to the range and each just plays slightly differently. Same ammo, but the recoil felt different, and even during breakdown they each had their own points where it was a ***** and a half to fully disassemble. Mines the inside stock takedown bolt, for whatever reason it's half science and half pleading to get the bolt to go through the frame. Other than that, no complaints. I'm in love. It's hands down better than a favor. And sure it won't beat a competition M1A at the range but the gun wasn't designed to do that!

Thanks again guys for the help. I have attached it's current config below.

The stock can be a bit tricky to get back together. The first time I really stripped it down it was hard to get those 4 push pins back in because I think tolerances in the rifle are pretty tight. I found to get the pins lined up so one can reinstall the stock etc, it helps to give the butt a bit of a rap to get proper alignment. I expect the process to get easier over time. Otherwise I agree fully on your post, I love the rifle.

 

[ronmar]

In order to get the two rear pins in, you must compress the buttstock/top channel. Stand the gun up on its muzzle and you will see, with the rear 2 pins out, you can push the butt towards the floor 1/16’ or so. Need to hold this compressed to insert the two rear pins...