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Opportunists. They saw the Judge, made the Governor. Now this. Bah!
I like it, if you want to talk about a copy, what about Ruger and their Little Copied Pistol?
 
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If you can't beat em, join em? I was shocked when I saw this come up today. Anyone know if this was done in collaboration with Keltec or if it is a blatant copy?
I'm thinking until samples are in people's hands, and then can be taken apart and looked at I would hold fire on the copy statement. I watched the TFB video and the switch between the magazines is different, and that's the obvious visual part. It may operate on a whole different system than the Ithaca system. And the bullpup concept certainly isn't new.

I do like that forearm, and it would be nice for a KS7, and the prices just outrageous in my mind but again I haven't handled one to look at it to say if it rates that kind of pricing.
 

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If they don’t go through the expense or effort to protect their ideas………..how many rifles and pistols are “copies“ of JMB work? At any rate it’s hard( impossible) to find anything cars, spacecraft, compound crossbows that don’t utalize information from things that came before. Looks like I will be revisiting the bull pup shotgun.
 

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I tried to watch a video by some obvious s&w fanboi reviewing the shotgun and letting you know he knew about it for 6 months but had been sworn to secrecy. he proceeded to wet himself over every "feature" as though they had sprung from the secret S&W skunk works and had never been seen before in human history. Then he goes on to say how you have to make sure to rack it hard otherwise it will short stroke, and how holding it upside down to load was difficult and clumsy to him and his brother(?) until they "got used to it". Then how S&W didn't look backwards 50 years in designing a product they thought consumers wanted, but instead looked forward 50 years into the future and designed what consumers said they want (perhaps looking at sales of KSG and KS7's?) this was all in the first little bit of the video before i had to turn it off due to gagging. if i can find it i'll post it
 

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Going to hurt KSG sales unless the S&W is significantly higher in price and even then the S&W name can still make the difference. May end up forcing KEL TEC to up their QA game and produce a shotgun that doesn't require fluffing and buffing to make it reliable.
 

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Why gag? S&W may force KEL TEC to have better QUALITY CONTROL over the KSG resulting in a better shotgun.
I'm thinking until samples are in people's hands, and then can be taken apart and looked at I would hold fire on the copy statement. I watched the TFB video and the switch between the magazines is different, and that's the obvious visual part. It may operate on a whole different system than the Ithaca system. And the bullpup concept certainly isn't new.

I do like that forearm, and it would be nice for a KS7, and the prices just outrageous in my mind but again I haven't handled one to look at it to say if it rates that kind of pricing.
If I was in the market I would seriously look at the S&W.
 

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Going to hurt KSG sales unless the S&W is significantly higher in price and even then the S&W name can still make the difference. May end up forcing KEL TEC to up their QA game and produce a shotgun that doesn't require fluffing and buffing to make it reliable.
I think it likely some may wait and see the various range reports.
 

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I watched the TFB TV YouTube video and he was definitely a fan boy. He was praising it all the while he and the others in the video could barely get shells in the tubes. He then proceeded to compare it to the KSG a bit and put down the KSG because essentially it didn't say "S&W" on the side. With an MSRP that's $300 more than the KSG, I think S&W will have a hard time selling these unless they make a boatload of them and they're on the dealers shelves when the KSG isn't.

As to major differences that I saw:
1. Magazine switch - Six of one, half dozen of the other as far as I'm concerned.
2. Safety switch - I like the AR-type safety on the S&W. But the typical shotgun-type safety on the KSG is fine and not a detriment.
3. Switchable grips - That's good if you need it. The AR-like grip on the KSG is probably fine for most.
4. Front grip - It's nice that they include an M-Loc vertical forearm, because you sure need it with the front hand grip on the S&W. Somebody is going to try to get fast with racking it and end up with their hand in front of the muzzle when they touch one off. In all fairness, the KSG has this issue as well.
5. Screw-in choke tubes - completely useless in a defensive shotgun like this. You're not going to take it out hunting or shooting trap. My load of choice in my KSG is the now-discontinued Federal Tactical Low Recoil #1 Buck Flight Control, and it patterns the KSG at no more than 4.5 inches at 25 yards.

As to the comments that S&W will make Kel-Tec improve their quality control, not so fast pilgrim. I'm on the S&W Forum a lot because I like older S&W revolvers and autos. I can tell you that S&W has a lot of quality control issues on newly manufactured firearms. So Kel-Tec's QC issues aren't reserved just for Kel-Tec.
 

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Not to pile on, but I forgot to mention the weight difference. The M&P-12 is 8.3 pounds empty, while the KSG is 6.9 pounds empty. The nearly 1.5 pounds may not seem like much, but wait until you add 15 rounds of buckshot. The KSG already feels pretty heavy to me fully loaded. The M&P-12 will be a handful.

Lastly, the KSG is 1.7 inches shorter than the M&P-12. Since you buy a bullpup for the reduced length, well, you know.
 

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I watched the TFB TV YouTube video and he was definitely a fan boy. He was praising it all the while he and the others in the video could barely get shells in the tubes. He then proceeded to compare it to the KSG a bit and put down the KSG because essentially it didn't say "S&W" on the side. With an MSRP that's $300 more than the KSG, I think S&W will have a hard time selling these unless they make a boatload of them and they're on the dealers shelves when the KSG isn't.

As to major differences that I saw:
1. Magazine switch - Six of one, half dozen of the other as far as I'm concerned.
2. Safety switch - I like the AR-type safety on the S&W. But the typical shotgun-type safety on the KSG is fine and not a detriment.
3. Switchable grips - That's good if you need it. The AR-like grip on the KSG is probably fine for most.
4. Front grip - It's nice that they include an M-Loc vertical forearm, because you sure need it with the front hand grip on the S&W. Somebody is going to try to get fast with racking it and end up with their hand in front of the muzzle when they touch one off. In all fairness, the KSG has this issue as well.
5. Screw-in choke tubes - completely useless in a defensive shotgun like this. You're not going to take it out hunting or shooting trap. My load of choice in my KSG is the now-discontinued Federal Tactical Low Recoil #1 Buck Flight Control, and it patterns the KSG at no more than 4.5 inches at 25 yards.

As to the comments that S&W will make Kel-Tec improve their quality control, not so fast pilgrim. I'm on the S&W Forum a lot because I like older S&W revolvers and autos. I can tell you that S&W has a lot of quality control issues on newly manufactured firearms. So Kel-Tec's QC issues aren't reserved just for Kel-Tec.
So your OK with KT Quality Control?
 

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So your OK with KT Quality Control?
I didn't say that, although the two Kel-Tec guns I have (KSG, P-17) have been problem free for the entire time I've owned them.

If you go back to read my comment, I said that having S&W on the side of the gun doesn't mean that the Quality Control will be any better. There are a lot of issues with S&W QC these days, and that's been the case for a number of years.

This was addressing comments up above that said essentially "S&W in the game will make Kel-Tec improve their quality control". Not necessarily, since they both have issues.
 

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I didn't say that, although the two Kel-Tec guns I have (KSG, P-17) have been problem free for the entire time I've owned them.

If you go back to read my comment, I said that having S&W on the side of the gun doesn't mean that the Quality Control will be any better. There are a lot of issues with S&W QC these days, and that's been the case for a number of years.

This was addressing comments up above that said essentially "S&W in the game will make Kel-Tec improve their quality control". Not necessarily, since they both have issues.
Just have to wait and see what, if any, issues S&W has with its new shotgun and the severity. I would be highly upset if fluffing and buffing was required to make it reliable. So I wish someone would disassemble both and compare the working parts for construction and materials used. That extra weight has to come from something and could be metal versus plastic parts.
 

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If I was in the market, I would definitely be considering the S&W against the KSG. There is never anything wrong with competition in a free market, it always benefits the consumer.

I purchased my ksg nearly 8 years ago. I had problems with it the very first time I took it out and it had to return to the mother ship. They fixed it and I have had no problems since. Hopefully this will encourage KT to step up QC as mentioned above. Looks are in the eye of the beholder and I definitely prefer the ksg of the M&P12, the M&P12 looks like the ugly tumorous or wart invested sister to the KSG. However, I prefer function over form and can not comment on that as I have not handled the M&P12.
 

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Going to hurt KSG sales unless the S&W is significantly higher in price and even then the S&W name can still make the difference. May end up forcing KEL TEC to up their QA game and produce a shotgun that doesn't require fluffing and buffing to make it reliable.
Honestly I got my KSG for $400 from a family friend and I treat it like a **** range/farm toy. It’s just a fun gun for me. I’ve thrown every kind of 12ga shell you can think of in it. Minishells, quadruple buckshot, dragons breath, etc. I’m probably a thousand shells in with no cleaning no maintenance no problems. If you pump with authority, it never fails to cycle and its still dead accurate at 25 yards at least, max I can usually shoot with it.
 
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