sellier & bellot's .380 92gr. FMJ ammo NOT FOR ME

Discussion in 'P-3AT' started by Second_Life, Oct 13, 2008.

  1. Second_Life

    Second_Life New Member

    76
    Jun 22, 2008
    I'm done with S&B for my P-3AT.  Shot 50 rds. having 20+ FTEs. >:(  At one point the FTEs were one after the other through two back to back mags.  Now with the gun dirty I moved on the my next box of UMCs not having one FTE and some of my HPs with no problems either, very reliable shooting and ejection. :)

    I've got 500+ rounds through my P-3AT now.  In the beginning I had FTEs like every newbie reports and did like everyone else does, F&B, limb wristing, sent it back to KT.  For me, IT IS THE AMMO CAUSING MY FTEs.

    So here's my warning to those newbies frustrated by FTEs.  Don't use the cheapest ball ammo and don't use Sellier & Bellot (S&B).
     
  2. TxCajun

    TxCajun Administrator Staff Member Supporter

    Sep 7, 2004
    Texas
    Re: Warning on sellier & bellot's .380 92gr. FMJ a

    Some of these can be ammo-selective. Sure as anything though, their are plenty of folks using S&B w/o issues. I usually tell follks that are having issues, among other things, try different ammo. When you find what works, stay with it. ;)
     

  3. virtual-rj

    virtual-rj New Member

    Jul 22, 2007
    Houston, TX
    Re: Warning on sellier & bellot's .380 92gr. FMJ a

    rather than tell people to avoid one type of ammo, I tell every new firearm purchaser, not just newbies or old timers, take the gun and 4-5 types of ammo, try them all and see what works best.

    all guns are different, and not all are going to like every type of ammo.

    You do not have to be a newbie to have this problem. FWIW, S&B works fine in mine.
     
  4. Brewster6514

    Brewster6514 Active Member

    Jun 10, 2006
    Re: Warning on sellier & bellot's .380 92gr. FMJ a

    works fine in mine as well.
    actually it is the most accurate that i have shot out of mine, and is what i shot for the 2007 postal match.
     
  5. Second_Life

    Second_Life New Member

    76
    Jun 22, 2008
    Re: Warning on sellier & bellot's .380 92gr. FMJ a

    I'm not debating your views on S&B, the repies below are from experienced shooters. But given my experience and round/round searching for FTE with recommendation to F&B, limb wristing, etc...... when it came down to an obvious 20 out of 50 rds with FTEs from only that brand, I'll stick with my recommended warning to use S&B.

    TxCajun, virtual-rjhauser and Brewster6514 - you guys know how many times this FTE is threaded. If you like S&B so much, I recommend a running ammo poll with FTE counts by brand/bullet to find the top ball/HP for the P-3AT. Can you do that?
     
  6. adamsesq

    adamsesq New Member

    Dec 25, 2006
    Re: Warning on sellier & bellot's .380 92gr. FMJ a

    To what end? Let's go to some extremes. Even if 90% of the people out there have had problems with S&B, if yours shoots it just fine the other 90% are meaningless to you.

    I have NEVER had a FTE with S&B and I have shot a lot more rounds through my P3ATs than most owners. That sounds pretty convincing, but then for it to mean anything you'd also have to know that I have NEVER put S&B in my weapons.

    -Scott
     
  7. rcmodel

    rcmodel New Member

    Feb 6, 2005
    Eastern Kansas
    Re: Warning on sellier & bellot's .380 92gr. FMJ a

    IMO: You might need a new hammer spring.

    I have shot S&B since I got my P3AT in 2005 in order to get cheap empty brass for reloading.
    No mis-fires with it, or anything else I have put through my gun.

    If I were buying ball ammo today, S&B would be my first choice.

    It is possible your hammer spring got over-extended when it was installed, and does not have as much strength as it should.

    rcmodel
     
  8. virtual-rj

    virtual-rj New Member

    Jul 22, 2007
    Houston, TX
    Re: Warning on sellier & bellot's .380 92gr. FMJ a

    Why bother, the poll would prove nothing. Not all guns like all ammo. Find what works for you, but I can not tell ANY OWNER to NOT USE ANY SPECIFIC AMMO (EXCEPT AMERC).

    What works for me may not work for Brewster6514, even in the same d@mn model gun (XD comes to mind)....
     
  9. Second_Life

    Second_Life New Member

    76
    Jun 22, 2008
    Re: Warning on sellier & bellot's .380 92gr. FMJ a

    After getting my P-3AT and joining this forum, like most newbies I sought help relating to the FTE only to get the same suggestions still being given then finaling sending it back to KT. This was my second visit to the range with the completely checked out gun. I'm done and know its the S&B ammo for my FTEs.
     
  10. Second_Life

    Second_Life New Member

    76
    Jun 22, 2008
    Re: Warning on sellier & bellot's .380 92gr. FMJ a

    "To what end?  Let's go to some extremes.  Even if 90% of the people out there have had problems with S&B, if yours shoots it just fine the other 90% are meaningless to you.  

    I have NEVER had a FTE with S&B and I have shot a lot more rounds through my P3ATs than most owners.  That sounds pretty convincing, but then for it to mean anything you'd also have to know that I have NEVER put S&B in my weapons.  

    -Scott"

    +1     Scott & virtual-rjhauser......I'll agree that a mass produced product may have better performance than another same product.  BUT, 20 out of 50 rds is unacceptable for me even for target practice. I hope you do agree with this concern? Even, "Bill," from KT support says that the P-3AT should work with any .380 ACP standard ammo. Its not the gun, which I'm very happy with, its the ammo.

    Again, all owner's getting frustrated with FTEs and looking for help should start by using UMC or something other than S&B before going nuts with limp wristing, F&B, whatever.  IMHO.
     
  11. adamsesq

    adamsesq New Member

    Dec 25, 2006
    Re: Warning on sellier & bellot's .380 92gr. FMJ a

    "Should" and "Do" are not always the same things.  In theory, theory and reality are exactly the same, but it reality they are not ;)

    If your weapon performs flawlessly on other ammo but not S&B, then don't shoot S&B.  There are other P3ATs out there that function flawless on anything except UMC.    As RJ tried to say, this is not limited to KTs, it happens frequently with other brands too.  You have to write it up to the "personality" of your weapon.  And it is good to know what your weapon likes or doesn't.  You also have to understand that the shooter is part of the overall equation. It is highly probable that some shooters could shoot your weapon with S&B without any problem and others couldn't. You can spend lots of time trying to make it better on all ammo and you might have success or your might just be more frustrated.  Or you can just avoid what it doesn't like and be happy.  Just a hint - shoot something else for 500+ rounds and then go back and try again, you might be surprised.

    The problem with your "warning" is that it is no more accurate for S&B than it would be for any other brand of ammo.  My favorite that most seem to like is AE FMJ, but I have even heard of someone here on KTOG having a P3AT that liked everything but that one?!?!?

    -Scott
     
  12. Cremator

    Cremator New Member

    116
    Oct 31, 2007
    Re: Warning on sellier & bellot's .380 92gr. FMJ a

    I agree 100%. S&B has failed in all my guns of all my calibers. (.380, 9mm, .45) Usually the cartridge expands and gets stuck in the chamber.
     
  13. virtual-rj

    virtual-rj New Member

    Jul 22, 2007
    Houston, TX
    Re: Warning on sellier & bellot's .380 92gr. FMJ a

    Unfortunately, i think what the original poster fails to understand is that this can happen to ANY AMMO IN ANY GIVEN GUN.

    It should not be a warning about S&B any more than WWB, AE, Winchester Ranger T, Speer Gold Dot, Remington UMC, Golden Sabre, DPX, etc.

    Although maybe we should all start posting threads about WARNING! Do not use AMMO IN YOUR P3AT.
     
  14. pocketgun

    pocketgun New Member

    May 4, 2005
    Re: Warning on sellier & bellot's .380 92gr. FMJ a

    Second Life, you can start your poll with the 300 flawless rounds of S&B through my P-3AT. Seems some P-3ATs are fine with it.
     
  15. carmike442

    carmike442 New Member

    Sep 14, 2004
    Re: Warning on sellier & bellot's .380 92gr. FMJ a

    This reminds me when about 4 years ago some were posting to stay away from WWB because it didn't work in KT's. WWB is what I've used for practice ammo in all my KT's for 5 years or more. There were others that said the same thing back then. Some guns just don't like certain ammo. If yours doesn't like something then don't buy it. What doesn't work for you doesn't mean it won't work for someone else. Like Scott said, some guns have a personality all their own.
     
  16. enigma4you

    enigma4you New Member

    Re: sellier & bellot's .380 92gr. FMJ ammo NOT FOR

    Second Life,

    Thanks for your opinion its just as valid as anyone elses. I find it interesting that you had the problem only with S&B ammo. MY first question would be where did you buy the ammo? I would check case OAL ect. With that many FTF I would go towards a defective run or contamination its been known to happen. Do the rounds that did not fire have a defined dimple in the primer from the FP strike? Did they fire when reinserted? any strange marks on the case of fte? The answers to these question will help you locate the cause be it ammo or gun.

    this is an example, When I first built my AR-15 I had major FTE and Jamming. I checked my ammo and I thought it was fine, I need to note here that I reload and I had a thousand rounds that I had loaded for a bushmaster that had shot with out a problem. I was with out a doubt certain that I had a defective bolt and carrier. I replaced both and had the same issues. I then started looking at my ammo. I went to Waaly world and picked up a box of remington .223 and it worked great. I then compared OAL between my reloads and the REM Mine were just a touch longer but still in spec. I loaded 20 rounds to the OAL of the rem and they worked great. THe point is each gun is different. We use the terms eat and feed as a joke sometimes but in truth sometimes you kust have to figure out whats right for you gun. Remember that because its right for your gun does not mean its right for others and vice versa. Good luck and I hope to see more post from you.
     
  17. Second_Life

    Second_Life New Member

    76
    Jun 22, 2008
    Re: sellier & bellot's .380 92gr. FMJ ammo NOT FOR

    Thanks enigma4you and everyone else who see its my opinion and attempt to help others.

    [​IMG]
    Pic of how all the FTEs look like.

    enigma4you - I got the ammo from Ammotogo.com (Bigdogammo.com).  You may be right about a bad run batch of ammo or whatever reason this ammo was so poor performing.  The product (P-3AT) is a great piece of machinary and it just seems hard to believe that a mass produced gun would have individual need for specific ammo to perform properly.  Does this mean that the military needs to have multiple brands of ammo for their M-16s?  Please understand this is a friendly question up for discussion.

    Here's a quote from Cremator,
    "Usually the cartridge expands and gets stuck in the chamber"

    I think this is what is happening in my case too if you look at the pic.  I had 20 out of 50 FTEs with 12 back to back, that s**ked.
     
  18. Hudispit

    Hudispit New Member

    295
    Oct 2, 2008
    Re: sellier & bellot's .380 92gr. FMJ ammo NOT FOR

    thats what was happening when my gf and i used BB ammo. so is that the ammos fault or the gun? i did a buff and fluff on it but should i go back and polish the chamber more?
     
  19. JB

    JB Guest

    Re: sellier & bellot's .380 92gr. FMJ ammo NOT FOR

    I think the important distinction is that, good as they may be, there are still major differences between a sub-$300 pocket pistol and a military issue M-16.  Also, my guess (and this really is just a guess - I don't know that much about how the military acquires ammo) is that government-issue ammo, being that the government works by contracts, all comes from the same manufacturer - or at least a very limited number of manufacturers.  Therefore, as long as the issued weapons work with the one or two makes of ammo that are issued, they don't really care if it works with other kinds (meaning the guns can be test fired with, theoretically, the only make of ammo that they will be using.)  Contrast this to a civilian weapon where factors like local availability and supply (as opposed to government issued from huge lots of inventory), personal preference of the civilian user (which doesn't enter into the whole 'government issued' plan very much) and variation in price (not much of a consideration for the gov. once contracts are signed, at least until that contract expires) all enter into the picture.  Further, civilian ammo suppliers are manufacturing ammo for a wide range of civilian makes and models within a given caliber.  Government suppliers, however, are manufacturing ammo specifically for the limited number of makes and models that are current issued weapons.  In other words, for civilian supply, S&B can make general .380 ammo and if it doesn't work in some weapons, it will work in others and they will still make money.  They just need to make generalized ammo and hope it works in some .380s (out of the many makes and models of .380s that exist) - in other words, they just need to be able to sell some ammo to some people for some guns so that the ammo is more 'generic' in its application.  For a government contract, however, the potential supplier doesn't need to make 'general use' ammo.  Instead, to get the contract (and make 'government contract' kinds of money) they would have to make darn sure that the ammo they produce for the contract will work in the particular and very limited group of makes and models that are government issue.  They are trying to sell specific ammo to a specific customer (the government) for specific makes and models of a specific weapon - meaning that the ammo can be more specifically designed to work within that limited group.  If there are feeding issues with some individual weapons within that group, the supplier can change the design of the ammo slightly to work in those, too (or the gov. can simply 'reject' that particular piece since they have plenty more of them - or, with their buying power, force the weapons supplier to replace them.)  In other words, while it may not be an apples and oranges comparison, it is certainly (at the very least) comparing crabapples to Granny Smith's.  Two different things.

    As far as your problems with S&B ammo, I haven't tried that in my .380.  In fact, I haven't even seen it in .380 at any of the gun/ammo stores I have checked for ammo prices.  I do have some S&B .38 special roundnose FMJs that get used for target practice and have functioned flawlessly (if a little dirty - and revo's are more 'forgiving') and some S&B slugs for my 12 gauge single, which also have given no problem, but I haven't fired many of them.  However, I did have a similar problem with a different brand of ammo.  I picked up some MagTech FMJ because it was the cheapest ammo I could find.  Now, a lot of folks on here swear by MagTech for the P3AT and it is all the guy at the gun store I frequent ever uses in his.  I believe that some folks on here even use it for carry ammo - it is that reliable in most P3ATs.  Most of them.  For me, I had three jams in the first six rounds - yep, three jams in the first magazine - that required the magazine to be dropped in order to clear them.  I had been using the Winchester truncated nose stuff (that many folks seem to believe will not work) and it was working fine, so I pulled out a second box of Winchester and it also worked fine.  It was the MagTech ammo that would not work in mine.  However, I did a fluff and buff (I've had my P3AT for several years but only recently began firing it much since I only recently got my carry permit) and now the MagTech runs through mine 'like butta'.

    I think there is a lesson to learn from your experience.  However (and I think this is the problem that some folks had with your first post) I believe that lesson is not 'avoid S&B at all costs.'  Instead, the lesson is:

    Try out different types of ammo in your P3AT - or any other weapon, especially semi-autos - to find out what will and will not work for yours. Don't assume that what works for someone else will work for you and if any brand, however popular with other owners, doesn't work for you and the problem can't be resolved, don't buy that ammo. That goes for any ammo.
     
  20. enigma4you

    enigma4you New Member

    Re: sellier & bellot's .380 92gr. FMJ ammo NOT FOR

    Alot of people dont know what happens from the time the trigger is pulled untill the shell is extracted.

    the firing pin impacts the primer, the primer is not unlike a cap.
    The primer causes the powder to burn. the burning of the powder increases the pressure in the shell casing. the increased presure forces the bullet from the casing and down the barrel.

    The burning powder causes the case to heat up, the heated case expands to the wall of the chamber. This is important because the expanded case is what keeps the bolt or slide from blowing back uncontrolled.

    When the case cools slightly the remaining pressure (In an automatic) causes the slide to come back bringing the spent shell with it.
    The spent shell is held in place by the extractor spring untill it contact the ejector. The ejector forces the spent shell out of the extractor at an angle that causes it to leave the gun.

    As the slide moves forward powered by the energy stored in the slide spring it feeds the new round from the magazine forward to the feed ramp, the feed ramp guides the round into the chamber and seating it. The process is ready to start over again.

    Most of the time this works perfect over and over. Things that can go wrong are carbon build up in the chamber, broken parts, weak springs. as well as ammo issues. Steel does not expand at teh same rate as brass so most steel cases have a coating on them to held it make correct contact with the wall of the chamber.

    Aluminum expands faster than brass so to counter this most al cases have a thinner wall or a slightly decreased dia.

    Over all case length plays a factor if the case is to long it can extend into the bore and cause sticking.

    TO short can cause poor shot groups and in severe case cause hard extracting. (not enough surface area in contact with chamber)

    Primers play a factor, hard primers may not work for some gun, FTF is not uncommon due to hard primers in small hand guns

    while soft primers can cause problems with other guns. soft primers can casue slam fires in dirty guns or guns with a floating firing pins.

    This is not an all inclusive list Other guns while simular have differeances ARs AK use a gas port, Revolvers dont eject casings, the above was more about automatics however the steps in round function are tha same.