Community for Kel-Tec Shooters banner

1 - 20 of 32 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,879 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
I've been reading a number of articles and studies on home defense. According to several, the "experts" are coming full circle and are again recommending a shotgun or a .223/5.56 for home defense due to the over penetration of handgun ammo. One study published that even your neighbors are at risk in their own home if you are forced to shoot an intruder in your home. Whereas, they found that buckshot and 5.56 ammo was far less likely to over penetrate within the home and even less likely to exit your home and enter the neighbors' homes around you.

Years ago, I kept a loaded 20ga double barrel on my side of the bed after my accident. Once I rebuilt my upper body strength so that I could shoulder an autoloader one handed, I sold that gun in favor of a handgun for the bedside and a 12ga Mossberg 9200 for turkey, etc. I'm once again leaning toward a 12ga or 20ga side-by-side for my first in the hand gun along with my 40S&W XDm.

I've been looking at two guns for this purpose. The first one I looked at is the Rossi Circuit Judge .410/45LC that's based on the Taurus Judge. It's a lightweight 5 shot revolver that I can easily use one handed. With Federal's 2 1/2 inch OO buckshot each round has 4 pellets compared to the 3 pellets of OOO buckshot in the other ammo makers' 2 1/2 inch loads. That's 20 pellets of OO Buckshot total but in 5 shots. The Circuit Judge runs @ $540.00 in these parts.

The other gun I've looked at is Stoeger's Coachgun with it's 20 inch cylinder bore barrels. This base model is offered in 12ga, 20ga, and .410. It's a base model but the blueing and the finish on the wood is rather nice. This two trigger model runs @ $370.00 around here. The higher grade single trigger gun that has interchangeable choke tubes runs slightly higher.

There is another Stoeger that I've read about and looked at on Gun Broker but haven't actually held or seen in my area is the Stoeger Double Defense. This gun has a single trigger, cylinder bore 20 inch barrels, and black wood with picatinny rails---one under the barrels and one for mounting optics. In my area it's running $430.00. It's an ugly gun compared to the regular Coach guns. However, I'm fond of ugly guns that are cheap and function. a pretty gun that doesn't go bang every tine the trigger is pulled is worthless to me.

In all the 12ga Stoeger double barrels throw the same amount of lead buckshot downrange as the Circuit Judge does but in only two shots. The Coach gun is just as easy to maneuver and handle quickly and feels much more solid in the hand than the Rossi does. That solid feel comes from a gun that weighs practically the same thing the Rossi weighs.

Given the broad range of folks and tastes that makes KTOG so great, I'm certain that at least one has experience with these guns---the Circuit Judge and the Stoegers. What is the build quality and endurance of these guns? Any help at all will be greatly appreciated.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,676 Posts
The Circuit Judge has had mixed reviews from what I've seen, as is the case with all Taurus firearms - you either get one that works great out of the box, or you get a lemon and it could take one or more trips back to Taurus to get it working right (or to get a replacement gun). Taurus has nifty designs, but their quality control is one of the main things (beside them being a non-USA company) that keeps me from buying any more of their guns - I had a 24/7 Pro in 9mm at one time, but had some sticky mag issues and got rid of it.

The Stoeger SXS shotties, however, I have seen used quite a bit locally for CASS competitions. They're pretty popular for their affordability and apparent durability. I'm guessing they probably only shoot #7.5 or #8 birdshot with these most of the time, though, so that might put a bit less strain on things than a steady diet of buckshot or slugs and, thus, that might contribute to their perceived reliability.

Not sure if that helps at all, but just my observations on 'em, FWIW.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
111 Posts
I can't comment on the Stoeger or Rossi guns. I will only add that I have shot a friends Taurus Judge 2x. Seems to be a well put together firearm, but I would never buy one because I have a real problem buying anything manufactured in Brazil. Buying anything manufactured in Brazil supports a scary dictator there and I won't.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9,391 Posts
I can't comment on the Stoeger or Rossi guns. I will only add that I have shot a friends Taurus Judge 2x. Seems to be a well put together firearm, but I would never buy one because I have a real problem buying anything manufactured in Brazil. Buying anything manufactured in Brazil supports a scary dictator there and I won't.
So, buy American, where we don't have a scary goverment? ;)
Dave,
I'd stick with the pistol. If I were you, I'd doubley stick with it. I don't now the extent of your imparment, but under less than ideal situations, a pistol is easier to handle in small areas. I'd look at 'safety' ammo. Frag rounds and such before I tried to navigate corners with a long gun.
I keep my safe(s) in the bedroom, and I sleep with the main one open. Pistol with nightsigts on the bedside table, other stuff loaded in the safe. I don't have close neighbors, so I'm not worried about over penetration, but when things go bump in the night, I walk right past a loaded mini-14, pump shottie, .44mag lever, .22mag lever, and check it out with my 9mm and flashlight. Now, I might find myself scurrying back for some hardware, but, thankfully that hasn't happend and won't.
.410's are wimpy. Worse out of a short pipe. And two rounds of anything are not enough.
Just my thoughts, show us pictures of what you get.

Lop
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,961 Posts
I can't comment on the Stoeger or Rossi guns. I will only add that I have shot a friends Taurus Judge 2x. Seems to be a well put together firearm, but I would never buy one because I have a real problem buying anything manufactured in Brazil. Buying anything manufactured in Brazil supports a scary dictator there and I won't.
Brazil has a scary dictator? Are you sure you aren't thinking of Argentina?
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
15,000 Posts
Brazil is a democratic republic, with a president elected every 4 years. It does NOT have a dictator.

Argentina has about the same form of government.

You guys are thinking of Venezuela, with that idiot Chavez as so called socialist "president" for life.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,961 Posts
As to the fit and quality of Taurus or Rossi, I will vouch for them. I own several of their pistols. All are quality products. My little .380 was the only one that needed to be sent in for repair (replaced extractor). Go figure, that's the only American made gun of the group. As for the Judge series of pistols, I just don't care for them or think they are very practical. I'd rather keep a 20 ga. or 12 ga. pump with a HD barrel at my bed if I were in your position, Dave. But, then again, I don't know how much strength you've built up in your weaker arm.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,067 Posts
my double barrel is a rossi, from way back but its a 12ga magnum and a very well made, very nice gun. I do not know if the current run is as good (this one is at least 20 years old) but its as solid and well made a gun as I have had the pleasure to shoot.

However I dunno about a 2 shot gun for home defense. I just do not care to trust my luck that far.

I prefer my rem 1100, which I dunno if you can get anything like it in 20 or 16. Hard to beat a semi auto with 8 or 10 rounds. Yes, it can jam, 99% of which are from shooting ultralight bird shot very rapidly. Slugs and heavy rounds have always been 100%.
 

·
Fido for short
Joined
·
5,409 Posts
Hi David,

Well as you said , KTOG is diverse,that is what we are here, and thats a great thing, ideas , ideas , and more ideas.

I have a Stoeger SxS that sits beside the bed , and a 9mm that sits on the nightstand.
You know I have had an accident also, leaving me a lefty and only 2 fingers on my dominant hand.
I have, and do practice grabbing the Stoeger, trippin the safety , and the rest of the motions of facing an intruder, with the little 9mm in my left hand.the left hand supports the forearm of the SxS, and the trigger finger is ready on the right hand with my stump and other finger supporting the rear of the SxS at hip and waist level. Like Lop in the open spaces , and do get those "bump in the night" thingys.
I use #4 shot in both barrels . If a guy or guys get past 2 blast of #4 , wow, the SxS is dropped , and the 9mm is ready.

The Stoeger is BUILT. Pretty, and easy to use. I dont need to pump it, which would be difficult for me. BTW it gets rabbits to eat also.
Dont think the Judge will do that.

This is my opinion, and how I do it for defending my home.

Jim
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,961 Posts
Brazil is a democratic republic, with a president elected every 4 years. It does NOT have a dictator.

Argentina has about the same form of government.

You guys are thinking of Venezuela, with that idiot Chavez as so called socialist "president" for life.
Yup Venezuela! I couldn't think of it as I read KTOG while sitting in traffic. My mind was drawing a blank on Chavez, but I knew who Mark was probably referring to.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
462 Posts
However I dunno about a 2 shot gun for home defense. I just do not care to trust my luck that far.

I prefer my rem 1100, which I dunno if you can get anything like it in 20 or 16. Hard to beat a semi auto with 8 or 10 rounds. Yes, it can jam, 99% of which are from shooting ultralight bird shot very rapidly. Slugs and heavy rounds have always been 100%.
The Remington 11-87, and Franchi 48 AL are semi autos that are available in 20 ga.

The Judge/Circuit Judge/Governor are all only good for making the other guy mad with anything other than .45 LC.

Though my suggestion would be a pistol caliber carbine shooting hollow points.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,311 Posts
My shotgun is a hunting gun, it's so long i have to stick it out the window of my blind to shoulder the thing. And the saftey is not handy for left hand operation. Have been thinking about getting a sg with a tang saftey, but i'm not really into shotguns.

I keep my xdm9 handy besides the bed
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,879 Posts
Discussion Starter #13
Dave. But, then again, I don't know how much strength you've built up in your weaker arm.
My left arm is dead and must be either in a brace or a sling. I sleep with it in a sling. I have enough limited use of the hand I made the call to not amputate the arm. I am totally unable to work a pump shotty. I have a Mossberg 9200 turkey gun but it is WAY TOO LONG and heavy for any use other than hunting.

I have a Hi-Point 995TS that I would have no problems using for home defense with Critical Defense ammo. It's light and short but so too is the Stoeger Coach gun. The Stoeger is 36 1/2 inches long with 20 inch barrels and 6.5 pounds. The 995TS is 31 inches long and 6.25 pounds. The double barrel is easier to shoot from the hip though whereas the action of the 995TS really hinders a one armed man trying to shoot it from the hip. IMO, the Stoeger Coach gun is superior to the 995.

Also, I will not be replacing my XDm as my house gun. Instead, I'm talking about supplementing it with a little more firepower. Somehow I failed to make that point; I will not be staking my life or that of anyone in my home on two rounds. When I get ready for bed, my brace comes off and my arm goes in my sling. My XDm is either in one of my hands (Yes, I can hold it in my hand even in my sling.) or resting in my sling on top of my arm if need be.

If I am roused by an intruder in the night, my XDm will be at the ready even with a Coach Gun at hand. My plan as long as I'm single is to stay hold-up in my bedroom or whatever room I happen to be in during a home invasion. IMO, there is never a time in one's home that they should ever be unarmed. That isn't paranoia; it's planning for the real world.* In every room of my home, I am armed and able to remain in every room that has a door as a "safe-room." The shotgun will simply be an addition to my current method of home defense especially at night in my bedroom.

Thanks for all the input. I really appreciate all the advice and opinions. I've begun solidifying my plans thanks to all of y'alls help.

*My own grandparents were the victims of a violent home invasion in the late 1970s. I swore that when I was an adult, I would never be at the mercy of a bad guy in my own home.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
462 Posts
I have a Hi-Point 995TS that I would have no problems using for home defense with Critical Defense ammo. It's light and short but so too is the Stoeger Coach gun. The Stoeger is 36 1/2 inches long with 20 inch barrels and 6.5 pounds. The 995TS is 31 inches long and 6.25 pounds. The double barrel is easier to shoot from the hip though whereas the action of the 995TS really hinders a one armed man trying to shoot it from the hip. IMO, the Stoeger Coach gun is superior to the 995.
You could also look into custom loads of 3" 12 ga. that trade out some powder for extra shot. You could easily make them with slightly more recoil than a 20 ga. with more than twice the shot load.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,067 Posts
I am drawing a blank on using a hammered coach gun one handed. If already cocked, perhaps (?) but that seems unsafe generally --- How would you make that work? Do some "coach" guns have a different operation than hammers(?).


I can easily imagine the 1100 one handed --- heavy and difficult due to the weight, sure, but possible and a shortened version with say 5 shots and half a barrel would be no trouble at all. Mine is excessively long in both barrel and mag tube, makes it too heavy for 1 hand.

I can see the 410 revolver shotguns one handed, but its not a massive increase in firepower. Really just an odd carbine at that point.

I know you can build something. There are some neat lightweight shotgun barrels out there.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,567 Posts
You mention the .223/5.56 in your first post so why not an Ar15? Semi-auto and up to 100 rounds if you want one of those big Surefire mags. You could build one and focus on keeping it light weight. If you load the ballistic tip ammo it should not over penetrate a target. It would be worth thinking about one IMO.

I just don't think a SxS is a good idea for home defense, even less so since I'm guessing reloading would be a challenge. Just get a Saiga12 and put a 20 round drum on it. ;)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,961 Posts
You mention the .223/5.56 in your first post so why not an Ar15? Semi-auto and up to 100 rounds if you want one of those big Surefire mags. You could build one and focus on keeping it light weight. If you load the ballistic tip ammo it should not over penetrate a target. It would be worth thinking about one IMO.

I just don't think a SxS is a good idea for home defense, even less so since I'm guessing reloading would be a challenge. Just get a Saiga12 and put a 20 round drum on it. ;)
I am pretty sure a Saiga with a 20 round drum would be a significant challenge for Dave or anyone else to point and shoot with one arm.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
462 Posts
I am drawing a blank on using a hammered coach gun one handed. If already cocked, perhaps (?) but that seems unsafe generally --- How would you make that work? Do some "coach" guns have a different operation than hammers(?).

The trigger up front cocks the gun, then the trigger in the back fires it.

You mention the .223/5.56 in your first post so why not an Ar15? Semi-auto and up to 100 rounds if you want one of those big Surefire mags. You could build one and focus on keeping it light weight. If you load the ballistic tip ammo it should not over penetrate a target. It would be worth thinking about one IMO.
Probably the same reason he's not using his Hi-Point 995TS (hard for him to shoot from the hip).
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,700 Posts
However, I'm fond of ugly guns that are cheap and function.
It's not ugly, but it functions the same as the Stoeger and is cheaper:

http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/...a+SxS+20"+Cylinder+Bore,+DT,+Internal+Hammers

USSG/Baikal is a decent quality product. Note that the picture shows the external hammer version, but the one listed is actually the internal hammer version. This exact coach gun is on my Wish List. But I would take a Stoeger just as easily, they're just a little more expensive.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,879 Posts
Discussion Starter #20
Stoegers do not have external hammers AND the trigger up front does not cock the gun. Each trigger fires one of the barrels. The two trigger design allows the shooter to shoot the barrel of his/her choosing.
 
1 - 20 of 32 Posts
Top