[AnotherOpus]

Hello,

I googled and searched this forum and found no other examples of this. Guess I'm special.

Anybody have some ideas, advise or experience with this...

I got a NIB RFB (second gen; SN T1P27), and first day on the range today, it started dropping the magazine after the first round.

The magazine is not falling. It is securely clicked into place in the RFB until the shot.

I successfully shot 20 rounds of one ammunition type, got the gas dialed in at 17 for those, and got a hand sized group at 100 yards. I was super happy.

Ammo: Aguila Ammunition 7.62x51 MM, 150 grain, FMJBT (full metal jacket boat tail).

However, once I switched ammo, set it up with one round to do the gas tests/settings, the magazine drops after the shot.

I fire a shot and the magazine drops.

I took the gas down 10 and same thing, ten more down and get the same thing.

I load up the mag with five or ten rounds and it does the same thing.

I thought maybe the gas was too high, but everywhere from five+ out to 40 it drops the magazine after firing.

I switched ammo after five rounds and it still does it with the third ammo type.

Ammo I used when the magazine drops:

A. ZQI Ammunition 7.62x51 MM (M80), 147 Grain FMJ, Boxer Primed, Non-corrosive.

B. CBC 7.62x51 MM, no indication on the box about grain.

Notes

I have only one magazine; the plastic one that came with the RFB.

The magazine fits into the rifle and snaps/clicks into place.

The magazine is secure and will not fall unless I tap the mag release--or fire a shot.

The magazine drops out whether I'm shooting on the bench or offhand.

It *SEEMS* to me that the magazine drops and goes forward.

I got home, and thinking about how it seems to drop out in a forward direction, I set the empty magazine in place in the RFB. Then I gently apply pressure at the bottom, back of the magazine (softly pushing it forward). I was surprised to discover that doing this--the magazine comes lose and drops out.

My guess is it's somehow over gassed (maybe), with these rounds and as the bolt gets all the way back something is tipping the magazine on the top, back causing it to come lose and drop. However, when I opened the gas up to 40, where the bolt won't hold back--it still happens.

I'm writing this same stuff to Kel-Tec.

Again, I appreciate any input, ideas, advise, experience, etc.

Thank you,

Chris

 

[TNC]

That's kind of different. It sounds like you have a Thermold mag, and sometimes they don't eject smoothly when empty. Your case is the opposite. My bet will be that something is wrong with the mag. While the RFB can have all kinds of gas tuning issues, kicking the magazine loose would be a major problem with the rifle IMO. Again, I'm going with the magazine. Not to diss' anyone else on the forum, I gotta say I'm no fan of the Thermold mags. Though they're plastic, they don't approach any of the robustness or rigidity of something like a Magpul and such. I just look at them like a cheap POS design. Sorry, but that's my opinion, and you know what they say about that.

Anyway, I'd search out another magazine to see how it functions. I use DSA FAL mags in the 20-round capacity, and I've had reliable function from them. Mine have good, plastic followers in the steel body while some have steel followers. I think there's something to the reason for using plastic followers that may add to the reliable feeding I've experienced, but you see some complaints about DSA mags too. The whole magazine issue on the RFB is one of the bigger Achilles heels for this rifle since true FAL brand mags have become somewhat unobtanium.

 

[AnotherOpus]

Thank you for chiming in TNC.

The magazine is the plastic Thermold magazine that came with the RFB.

It *appears* to have some unusual wear (actually, a tiny chip off) on the top, back, right-side, upper notch.
But I only have one magazine to look at. From online photos it seems a small chip was sheared off.

I was 100% open to Thermold mags, and was going to buy some Moses mags. However, now that I see this small missing chip where a notch should be, I may be going metal only.

I've asked at my local range, where I'm a member, and called a few places, and I cannot find any metric FAL (metal) magazines here.
I've seen the photos of the stamped mags vs the machine mags and I'm looking for the machined mags.

It seems odd that these once cheap FAL magazines are now so pricey. I know--supply and demand.

Wish I had the time, energy and money to start an FAL mag company that made "bullet proof" work-every-time, high quality magazines. I know I'd pay a premium if I knew the magazines were great.

Thanks again,

Chris

 

[CyberScoper]

Yep, sounds like you got a broken mag. I'll post a pic shortly of what that corner of the mag is supposed to look like.

 

[BlakeHanson]

Thank you for chiming in TNC.

The magazine is the plastic Thermold magazine that came with the RFB.

It *appears* to have some unusual wear (actually, a tiny chip off) on the top, back, right-side, upper notch.
But I only have one magazine to look at. From online photos it seems a small chip was sheared off.

I was 100% open to Thermold mags, and was going to buy some Moses mags. However, now that I see this small missing chip where a notch should be, I may be going metal only.

I've asked at my local range, where I'm a member, and called a few places, and I cannot find any metric FAL (metal) magazines here.
I've seen the photos of the stamped mags vs the machine mags and I'm looking for the machined mags.

It seems odd that these once cheap FAL magazines are now so pricey. I know--supply and demand.

Wish I had the time, energy and money to start an FAL mag company that made "bullet proof" work-every-time, high quality magazines. I know I'd pay a premium if I knew the magazines were great.

Thanks again,

Chris

Throw the plastic crap away. And be glad it didn't fail when you needed it most.
Any 7.62 NATO gun is going to punish the mags. Plastic isn't going to last.
2 steel surplus mags are $40.
I'm fond of the Israeli mags. They are not pretty (they're parkerized). But they are tested by people who get shot at.
Take 2 mags and call us in the morning.

 

[CyberScoper]

Picture is a little blurry, but you can make out the features. If top, right, rear corner doesn't look similar to this, or that upper most tab is missing, you have a defective or broken mag. That tab holds the mag in the rifle.

Just call Kel-Tec, and explain it is a new gun and ask them to send you one, but go online and buy a couple more anyway. You will eventually need them. Note that tab on the one pictured here is already starting to wear.

 

[BlakeHanson]

...but go online and buy a couple more anyway. You will eventually need them. Note that tab on the one pictured here is already starting to wear.

And here is what the 'real' one looks like:

 

[AnotherOpus]

Wow, you guys are great. Thank you for the help getting going with this.

If top, right, rear corner doesn't look similar to this, or that upper most tab is missing, you have a defective or broken mag. That tab holds the mag in the rifle.

Thank you CyberScope.

The bottom right corner, of that top tab, is missing--sheared off.

 

[AnotherOpus]

Thank you BlakeHanson,

Throw the plastic crap away. And be glad it didn't fail when you needed it most

Agree! I didn't pay almost $ 1,500 for a single shot RFB

When I first started shooting my new RFB I was as happy as a guy who was just shooting his new RFB for the first time.

Any 7.62 NATO gun is going to punish the mags. Plastic isn't going to last.

Agree again; the RFB does punish itself so I'm going to be very careful to learn, document and refine the gas settings to the perfect LOWest gas for each round.

I watched a video of a guy lubricating an RFB and the "polished" wear points everywhere inside were an eye-opener.

I'm fond of the Israeli mags. They are not pretty (they're parkerized). But they are tested by people who get shot at.
Take 2 mags and call us in the morning.

I'm a DD-214, non-Jew pro-Israeli, who agrees with you about the value of IDF equipment. If IWI had made a TAVOR in the REAL 7.62 round (x51, instead of x39) I'd have been in that forum already as a new owner.

For fun here's some pics of my first group @ 50m, from the first 20 rounds.

I'M HAPPY AS HELL WITH RFB ACCURACY.

Then after I got the scope "dialed in" at 100m.

Again, I'M HAPPY AS HELL WITH RFB ACCURACY.

Here was the ammo I used, and dialed in at gas setting 17.

After using that ammo successfully with several rounds in the mag, and no problems, I changed ammo and started the gas setting test again, and the magazine started dropping out.

I've emailed Kel-Tec and let them know about this.

I really appreciate the help you guys shared here.

 

[BlakeHanson]

I've emailed Kel-Tec and let them know about this.

I really appreciate the help you guys shared here.

You're welcome!
Since you got some waiting to do (email won't get thru), why don't you volunteer to test one of these steel repro mags made by RWB in the mean time and tell us if they are crap?
Only 15 dalla! 84 available. (crappy plastic ones are $30)

You can always use it to store leftover bullets in. (that's what I use the DSA mag for that came with my RFB).
A magazine is a very important part of an automatic weapon.
A bad one will turn even the best gun into crap.
If the RWB ones are made on old-school machinery, they could be awesome.
(you know you want to:rayof.

 

[TNC]

Blake...can't recall if I've asked you this before...did your DSA magazines have metal or plastic followers? Man, if I saw one of those RWB FAL mags on a store shelf at that price, I'd try it.

 

[r_thunder77]

Try calling KT and tell them the problem with your brand new weapon and demand a couple metal magazines! Can't hurt all the can say is buzz off?

 

[BlakeHanson]

Blake...can't recall if I've asked you this before...did your DSA magazines have metal or plastic followers? Man, if I saw one of those RWB FAL mags on a store shelf at that price, I'd try it.

I have 2 DSA mags. The shiny-new 20 rd one that came with my RFB in 2013 that would not feed even when dry-cycled. It just needs some "lip-service". I'll get around to it one day.
The other one is the 30 rd (which we don't talk about) that is actually a NOS surplus mil-spec mag with a DSA floorplate obviously swapped in.
Both have metal followers.
I use 'other' ones mostly.

Since this thread has the word "magazine" in it, I'll diverge a bit on mil-spec.
The USA never adopted the FN-FAL for the military so there is no such thing as 'US mil-spec' with respect to it's parts.
However, most of the non-communist countries in the world did.
Their specs are basically copies of ours.
If nothing else is to be taken away from this, their mil-spec will mean thoroughly tested under demanding conditions.
This also means that a magazine did not simply drop off of the assembly line into a box.
All "new" mil-spec mags will look a little used because they have been plugged into a rifle and TESTED.
They have to be.
None are tested for the first time on a battle field.
Plastic can warp even in the presence of chemical "aroma" and pretzel, degrade (lose strength), or crack, especially over time.
As long as it isn't a critical part, that's ok. Magazines are a critical part of an automatic rifle. When you can buy something that cost the Argentine government or others $65 each, tested out the wazoo, for only $20... this just isn't the place to pinch pennies.
Especially when plastic ones are about the same price. My

.
:RantOff:

 

[CyberScoper]

Plastic versus steel. They each have their place. Choose what works for you. Poly-carbon science has came a long way since the 60's, but it got us to the moon and back, even then (almost 50 years ago). Even "Gluck" today, makes a compromise and uses steel re-enforced lips on some of their magazines.

Note the beloved RFB stock and fore arm are made of a very similar compound as the mags we speak of, as well as most other KT products.

As for mil-specs, they are not always what they are made out to be. I spent much of my last two years in the "chair force" making common sense judgments in getting rid of redundant and outdated regulations and specifications from the military weapon systems development process.

One humorous lesson learned: During the development of the B-2 bomber, the prime contractor came to the Gub'ment and requested a waiver from the leather tanning mil-spec some clueless wonder had applied to the contract. Why leather on a B-1? The aircrew member seats were leather covered. Oh yes, it was fully equipped. That spec was a holdover from the horse and cavalry knee high boot days, and required horse urine to tan the leather. While horse urine was technically still available, there were much more effective and user/environmentally friendly chemicals and processes available. And, there were few volunteers available to collect the urine.

Another lessons learned is it is not always smart to go cheap. For cost savings, commercial radios, with weaker encryption technology, than the mil-spec ones, were used in the mega million dollar high tech drone the mad mullahs managed to capture several years ago, by over-saturating its sensors with blasts of microwaves.

Diatribe over. Back to the mags.

I own around 10 steel mags from various sources and only about half feed reliably in both RFB's I own. Some are gun specific - will work in one RFB, but not the other, resulting in marking which one feed well in which gun.

And if you buy used, many sellers lie about condition, or are clueless. I had one sent to me without even the existence of a locking tab -- wasn't worth the postage and hassle to argue over.

I also own 6 Thermold plastic ones. All of those feed reliably, although one needs extra care to ensure it is seated in one of the two RFB's.

So use what works for you.

 

[BlakeHanson]

...horse urine was technically still available,
...So use what works for you.

Good points.
I forgot to add, plastic mags are much more resistant to horse urine than steel mags.
Which as we all know, can happen when you least expect it.


*edited by Haugrdr*

Really? Did we need to go there? Already thin ice.

 

[CyberScoper]

So I take it Blake is a volunteer for the horse urine collection, but I doubt that pretend to be photoshop "jockey" really wants to fire that weapon while in that very compromising position.

 

[TNC]

So...on the DSA magazines...does anyone else have DSA steel FAL mags with plastic followers? I don't think I've found anyone else who has DSA's with the plastic followers. I'm thinking it has something to do with why mine feed with no issue.

 

[TommyG]

I have 4 DSA mags with plastic followers. For me it was a waste of money. My RFB will not feed, doesn't make any difference if 1 or 20 rds in mag. No problem with the Thermold mags. If I can find a surplus metal FAL I like to try it. I paid $25 a piece for the DSA. I thought that was cheap for a new metal magazine, Now I know why, you get what you pay for.

 

[TNC]

I don't get it. I have a working RFB with DSA magazines. You sift through the posts on this forum, and you see some others also have working RFB's, and many don't...some even blowing up to some degree. I have working DSA mags and others cuss them. Just today we have a post about an RFB suppressor piston that a member received that won't even fit in the adjustable gas system cylinder of the rifle it's supposed to be designed for. These hot and cold reports are all over the board. It's gets one to thinking that it's just a luck-of-the-draw as to what results you're apt to get when you get an RFB. Not very confidence inspiring.

 

[AnotherOpus]

Note the beloved RFB stock and fore arm are made of a very similar compound as the mags we speak of...

I *WISH* the thermold mag was made out of the same stuff the RFB stock and fore arm are made of. It is surprisingly strong; whereas the thermold mag is not.

The mag worked great and fed great until it popped out, broke off the lil' tab on top, and my new RFB became a contender--a Thompson Contender.

No word back from KT from my emails. And the couple of times I've called (1:30ish here in Colorado), KT is always closed. But I can check their FAQs according to them

If KT lets me keep the mag and sends me a new one, I'm going to put a drop of Gorilla Glue on the broken chip of the tab, sand it down to where it should be--and then learn something about Gorilla Glue vs. RFB 308... although I think I already know the what the lesson will be.

BTW, My Glock 17, Gen 4 came with three Glock mags. I wish the RFB came with three--or at least two.