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Everyone always gets this wrong. It's perfectly all right to drink the Kool-Aid, but you can't eat the cookie at the same time. The cookie is the activator for the Kool-Aid.

:foil:
In some weird way that makes sense.:rolleyes:
 

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Saw this post on sister forum HPFF:

"Cerberus Capital Management LP, the private equity firm that controls Remington, will lose ownership of the company as a result of the bankruptcy. The company's creditors, which include Franklin Templeton Investments and JPMorgan Asset Management, will exchange their debt holdings for equity in the company."
My reply there, as here, is:
That might actually be good for the company. Maybe for the perceived reputation anyway. The general "gun community" hates Cerberus.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
 

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It will be interesting to see how the creditors will try to cover their investment. I personally think the Remington brand will survive, but I'm not so sure some of the other brands will. I can see the Bushmaster brand going away because of the negative press (unwarranted, in my opinion) the brand has received for the last five years or so. Besides, does a company need three different brands to sell ARs under?
 

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It will be interesting to see how the creditors will try to cover their investment. I personally think the Remington brand will survive, but I'm not so sure some of the other brands will. I can see the Bushmaster brand going away because of the negative press (unwarranted, in my opinion) the brand has received for the last five years or so. Besides, does a company need three different brands to sell ARs under?
It might be smart to publicly make the Bushmaster brand go away and roll all of the Bushmaster models in to the Remington line, maybe even calling them "Bushmaster." Just transfer the warranty in to Rem. That kinda looks like what they're doing with Para.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
 

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In a tough market the innovators survive, not the copycats. Remington isn’t innovating.
I dunno. Points for the R51 on "innovation." Looks to me like they also were trying on the RP9. I fondled one and it is very comfortable in the hand and definitely beats the competition on capacity. The RM380 is pretty "innovative" but they bought that innovation (and then tweaked it a bit).

Buying Para, theoretically, gave them access to double-stack 1911's for their own line as well as Para's DA trigger system. While not "innovative" per se, it sure seems that there are people who want that feature but there doesn't seem to be anyone serving that market. Used para's with their "better" trigger seem to be in demand. Not to me, mind you. The idea of a double stack, double action 1911 seems kinda "icky" to me, but, otoh, I'm not a big 1911 fan either. :D

Looking at their offerings on Buds, it looks like one of the Bushmaster AR's made it into Remington's "brand." I'll have to browse their products list to find out for sure.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
 

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Discussion Starter #47
It's against that backdrop that the legendary gun manufacturer Remington on Monday said it would file for Chapter 11 bankruptcy.

As Reuters reported, the North Carolina-based company announced it had reached a deal with creditors to reduce its $950 million debt load, seeking to write off about $700 million. The company will continue to operate as usual as the case proceeds in Delaware federal court, Remington executives said.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/ct-biz-remington-gunmaker-bankruptcy-20180213-story.html
 

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Discussion Starter #48
Remington said it “will continue to operate in the normal course and will not be disrupted by the restructuring process.” That includes payments to vendors, employee wages and other benefits and customer support.
"Normal" for our company in Chapter 11 was to write a check for every material received and walk it out to the dock so the driver would turn delivery over to us. No credit, no purchase orders.

http://www.gopusa.com/?p=39295?omhide=true

“Creditors may choose to continue to operate the company or they might try to sell it off piecemeal. Normally, without a prepackaged deal to sell it to another company, these types of endeavors last between six and 12 months before the company emerges from bankruptcy, is sold in total to pay off creditors, or has its assets liquidated.
 

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Reuters, Chicago Tribune, GOPUSA, et al continue to state that Remington's bankruptcy is the result of a recent downturn in the firearms market. I call Fake News Shenanigans! Yes, the industry is in a bit of a slump. The firearms industry business cycle is politically driven. However, as I've mentioned before and documented by a link to Remington's bond rating history, Remington's problems are far more systemic and long term, going back 15-20 years. Remington was losing market share and posting big losses during the longest firearms boom phase in history. Yes, a contracting market tightens the noose more quickly, but that noose has been dangling from Remington's neck for a very long time.

If Remington couldn't make money during a huge market boom, it's going to be all that much harder for them to make money during the current market retraction. On the plus side, this isn't a market bust. It's a relatively mild retraction that is actually not even a return to pre-boom sales figures. Even though sales are off from previous years, sales are still strong and most firearms companies are doing well. Kel-Tec is privately held so their financial condition is much less a matter of public record, but clearly Kel-Tec is doing well. They've increased the prices on their products, moved into more upscale products with higher prices and almost certainly higher profit margins, and they continue to ship everything they manufacture into an endless back order on almost every product in their lineup. They also continue to innovate to create future prosperity. Admittedly, it's difficult to compare a Kel-Tec and Remington. From a size perspective, there is no comparison. However, Kel-Tec and other customer oriented and innovative firearms companies demonstrate that Remington's problems are not shared by the firearms industry at large.

I was not surprised to see the typical unrealistic upbeat comments from Remington management. They're bankrupt but they're doing just swell. Business as usual and things are looking better every day! No matter that their stockholders just lost their entire investment and creditors now own Remington. Everything is just fine!
 

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Careful with the Kool Aid.
I'm pretty sure GOPUSA.com is a "Conservative Re-education Propaganda tool" by the left.
Look under the "Contact Us" and "About Us" buttons and there is no state, city, and most importantly, names to be found at all.
In the Remington article they couldn't help but slip this in:
GOPUSA said:
The company also has been overshadowed by lawsuits filed following the 2012 Newtown school shooting tragedy in which 20 first-graders and six educators were killed. The assailant used a Remington-made rifle.
Sound familiar? It's obligatory.
Now they are all "first-graders":wall:. 'Children' was not good enough.
A law passed years ago prevents lawsuits against gun manufacturers for what a bad-guy did with their product.
It's a total non-issue... unless you're Bloomberg:rolleyes:.
A quick glimpse of their "Hot Topics" reveals who they really are:
GOPUSA.JPG

Really, who else calls George W. Bush: "The Establishment Darling"?

You want a cookie with that Kool Aid?:D

Back on topic, if I could wash out $700million in debt and keep everything I bought with it, and only have one black mark next to my name; well HECKYEAH!!
 

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Reuters, Chicago Tribune, GOPUSA, et al continue to state that Remington's bankruptcy is the result of a recent downturn in the firearms market. I call Fake News Shenanigans! Yes, the industry is in a bit of a slump. The firearms industry business cycle is politically driven. However, as I've mentioned before and documented by a link to Remington's bond rating history, Remington's problems are far more systemic and long term, going back 15-20 years. Remington was losing market share and posting big losses during the longest firearms boom phase in history. Yes, a contracting market tightens the noose more quickly, but that noose has been dangling from Remington's neck for a very long time.

If Remington couldn't make money during a huge market boom, it's going to be all that much harder for them to make money during the current market retraction. On the plus side, this isn't a market bust. It's a relatively mild retraction that is actually not even a return to pre-boom sales figures. Even though sales are off from previous years, sales are still strong and most firearms companies are doing well. Kel-Tec is privately held so their financial condition is much less a matter of public record, but clearly Kel-Tec is doing well. They've increased the prices on their products, moved into more upscale products with higher prices and almost certainly higher profit margins, and they continue to ship everything they manufacture into an endless back order on almost every product in their lineup. They also continue to innovate to create future prosperity. Admittedly, it's difficult to compare a Kel-Tec and Remington. From a size perspective, there is no comparison. However, Kel-Tec and other customer oriented and innovative firearms companies demonstrate that Remington's problems are not shared by the firearms industry at large.

I was not surprised to see the typical unrealistic upbeat comments from Remington management. They're bankrupt but they're doing just swell. Business as usual and things are looking better every day! No matter that their stockholders just lost their entire investment and creditors now own Remington. Everything is just fine!
I pretty much agree with everything you just wrote.

On a side note of "optimism," does anyone think that Remington brand is going to disappear now. I don't and it doesn't look like most market watchers do either. Is Remington at their financial high-point now? Obviously not. Can they get much lower? Probably not, or not much. So, if they're not going to go away and they're at their low-point... umm... buy low and sell high? If I had money to invest, I'd probably invest in Remington right now. :)

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
 

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If I understand the situation, Ceberus Capital Management, the present owner of Remington Outdoor, is going to turn the company over to the creditors as payment of outstanding debt. It remains to be seen what that new ownership will do with the company. They could try to run it themselves and keep it privately held, or they could do an IPO and make the company public. The worst case (for the firearms community) would be if the new ownership just shut the whole thing down, and liquidate the company's physical and intellectual assets. I doubt the latter will be the case, as it likely to not be profitable.
Competent management, that is responsive to the consumer, can return Remington to profitability.
 

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According to some industry insider's, there were several plans evaluated by ROC/Ceberus and those plans have been passed on to the creditors. Some suck, some are pretty elegant. We will see if a bean counter chooses, or a visionary. :). Folks keeps saying "Remington" and Freedom Group, when in fact it is Remington Outdoor Company in which "Remington" is a brand. ROC is/was then owned by Ceberus.

Some of the divisions are profitable, and some of the more recent acquires still have old company management and personel in place. In fact some of them are (except financially) are still basically autonomous. Barnes for instance would be prime. Para, AAC, Dakota Arms, maybe even Marlin could be "bought" back by the prior owners, or new owners, at a discount and easily turned around. It is better to sell a "brand" than to dismantle and sell the assets. Tapco and Bushmaster seem to be the two that are ripe for liquidation and closing of the brand.
 

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So, if they're not going to go away and they're at their low-point... umm... buy low and sell high? If I had money to invest, I'd probably invest in Remington right now. :)

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
Absolutely well said.
One of my favorite stocks got dragged down by the latest gyrations in the market.
I sit on the sidelines and wait for years for the price to drop and it to go on sale.:(
Never happens.
Bad-news can be good-news sometimes (boo, hoo, hoo!). It pays a steady 4.5-5.3% dividend.
Caught it on sale!
:spot:
High-five.gif
 

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Discussion Starter #55
The Remington bankruptcy process:
Amid rage over the Feb. 14 Florida school shooting, Feinberg’s Remington Outdoor Co. is trying to pull off a swift trip through the court. The process will hand ownership of the guns-and-ammunition conglomerate from Feinberg’s private investment firm, Cerberus Capital Management, to such well-known names as Franklin Resources Inc. and JPMorgan Asset Management and their broad customer bases. The soon-to-be owners, who still must line up fresh financing, won’t operate the company for long, according to people with knowledge of the matter. They’ll seek to sell it in whole or part soon after the reorganized firm emerges from bankruptcy court, the people said.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-02-27/cerberus-hands-gunmaker-to-wall-street-creditors-at-tense-moment
 
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Discussion Starter #56
Background of the Remington bankruptcy:

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/remington-throws-towel-lies-ahead-183500719.html?.tsrc=rss

Vista Outdoor debt/cash ratio doesn't sound good either, but they are more diversified: American Eagle, Blazer, CCI, Estate Cartridge, Federal Premium, Force on Force, Fusion, Independence, Savage Arms, Savage Range Systems, Speer, and Stevens brands. Selling under brand names: Alliant Powder, Bee Stinger, Bell, Blackburn, BLACKHAWK!, Bollé, Bushnell, Butler Creek, C-Preme, CamelBak, Camp Chef, Cébé, Champion Target, CoPilot, Eagle, Final Approach, Giro, Gold Tip, GunMate, Gunslick Pro, Hoppe's, Jimmy Styks, Krash, M-Pro 7, Millett, Night Optics, Outers, Primos, Raskullz, Redfield, Serengeti, Simmons, Tasco, Uncle Mike's, and Weaver brand names.
 

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"Cerberus bought them out after loading the gunmaker with some $1 billion in debt"

That's the problem with big corporations, their various little holdings mean nothing to them individually. I used to work for a company that was saddled with debt, then spun off into a new entity. Big business is often a shell game, and believe me, it sucks being stuck in the wrong shell.

"Once the restructuring is complete, Remington will have cut its debt by around $700 million and will inject $145 million in new capital into its operating units. The pre-approved bankruptcy will also provide $100 million in creditor-funded money as a debtor-in-possession term loan. Perhaps most notable, at the completion of the process, Cerberus Capital will no longer own Remington."

Hopefully, they are at least headed in the right direction. At least they are getting out from under Cerberus, but still have to jump through some hoops just to cut the added debt by 70%.
 

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Well, it's official. Remington is dead:
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/03/25/gun-maker-remington-files-for-bankruptcy.html
(except of course, that they will continue to make guns and it will be business as usual except without a lot of debt that got written off:)).
Wall Street Journal said:
"According to the Journal, Remington announced that it would file for Chapter 11 last month but the actual filing was delayed after the Feb. 14 shooting at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland, Fla. that killed 17 people.

The paper reported that Remington officials plan to hand over the reins to its creditors in exchange for writing off most of the company's debt. Cerberus Capital Management LP bought Remington for $118 million in 2007, assuming $252 million in debt in the process."
Only in America can you buy a bunch of stuff with other people's money, scream "11", get to keep it all and not pay for it
clap.gif
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Well, it's official. Remington is dead:
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/03/25/gun-maker-remington-files-for-bankruptcy.html
(except of course, that they will continue to make guns and it will be business as usual except without a lot of debt that got written off:)).

Only in America can you buy a bunch of stuff with other people's money, scream "11", get to keep it all and not pay for it View attachment 35379 .
They'll be toxic for investors for about 5 yeas, IMS.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
 

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They'll be toxic for investors for about 5 yeas, IMS.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
This is true.
But if you loan me $500-million and then write it down to zero, I'd be good for years too:).
Remington isn't going anywhere, and will continue to make guns without a hiccup.
Yeah, Colt declared bankruptcy and is doing just fine, and making guns today like always.
This is all just about the investors that are grabbing their ankles about now
assspank.gif
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They all drank the Kool-Aid and gambled on a different election outcome.
It's probably going to sting a little at first, but isn't anything that we all haven't experienced.
 
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