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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
There has been a lot of discussion about the Hellion (mostly by me) so I want to consolidate it into one thread.

What are your impressions of the Hellion? What are its advantages or disadvantages compared to the RDB or even over the AR or AK? Primarily, I would like your opinion on its suitability as a SHTF rifle. (My mind is not made up and I have been re-looking at some ARs as some here have suggested.)

I'll start:

Advantages:
1. More Durable - built like a tank
2. More Reliable - works in hot environments
3. Vetted in a real military combat environment - Any reliability issues would have surfaced by now after years in the combat environment
4. More Accurate ~<2MOA - which would probably be better with better ammo
5. Cool rifle - it looks really like a modern futuristic rifle. Something you won't be ashamed to be seen in the range with
6. Fully Ambidextrous
7. Works perfectly with steel mags, unlike the RDBs
8. Probably designed from the outset to eat thru commie east-bloc steel ammo since it is actually made in the East-Bloc.
9. Appears to be very light recoiling.
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Disadvantages
1. Price is ridiculous
2. Trigger appears to be worse compared to RDB
3. Heavier
4. Bolt release is sub-optimal
5. Magazine release and exchange is sub-optimal compared to ARs
6. Quite honestly, I don't like the raised picatinny rail that seems to excessively raise the sight too much over the bore.
7. Less flexible gas block setting. Only 2 settings. I like the RDBs semi-continuous gas block settings to precisely control the amount of gas you want.
 

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As an owner of an RDB and a Hellion, I can tell you that the triggers between both are a wash. The RDB is lighter, but the Hellion has a cleaner break and more tactile reset.

Build quality of the Hellion is significantly better than the RDB.

I run all my rifles suppressed and the balance of a suppressed bullpup is far better than an equivalent AR.

If I had to fight with one, it'd probably be the AR or Hellion.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
As an owner of an RDB and a Hellion, I can tell you that the triggers between both are a wash. The RDB is lighter, but the Hellion has a cleaner break and more tactile reset.

Build quality of the Hellion is significantly better than the RDB.

I run all my rifles suppressed and the balance of a suppressed bullpup is far better than an equivalent AR.

If I had to fight with one, it'd probably be the AR or Hellion.
Trigger info is nice to know as that was one of the early criticism of the Hellion.

Now, the better question for you is, During SHTF, would you rather be holding an AR or a Hellion? Why?
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
OFF-TOPIC Post:

Some here have been mocking me for preparing for a zombie apocalypse, thinking that I am one of those nut jobs who think that dead people can actually rise up and walk. But that is not the kind of zombie I am talking about. Here's what I posted earlier.

Of course zombies aren't real - zombies in the sense that they are dead or undead. But zombie-like is quite real and possible.

I'm sure you are familiar with rabies and how it makes the victim rabid, mad and crazy. Our saving grace has been that rabies is not very contagious, so it hasn't been able to take hold in numbers that are of concern. Now enter COVID which is very contagious. An evil dictator (China) is already planning or even making a genetically engineered COVID shell with a Rabies-like internal. Imagine a virus that is as rabid as Rabies and as contagious as COVID. You will have a hoard of zombie-like rabid people in no time. You still think I'm nuts for planning for a zombie-like SHTF scenario? Far from being unlikely, I submit to you that it is the most likely SHTF scenario.

If COVID has taught us anything, is that it is relatively easy to genetically engineer a virus that is designed to be highly infectious. COVID is just the shell carrier that is highly contagious. The more lethal and dangerous part is the rabies-like virus payload inside.

You still can't think of a situation where you might need to make that 200yd head shot? Just imagine a hoard of rabies-infected zombie-like people running towards you. I'm sure you are NOT going to try to make that 200yd head shot but wait for them to come closer since your SHTF rifle is "not designed to be a precision rifle", and "you don't want to give your position away".

Some posters here are dumping on me for seeking a more accurate RDB, but I think they are just not thinking tactically and realizing the threat that is imminent.
Here's a real, factual, scientific National Geographic documentary depicting an actual Rabies infected Rabid person. Now, imagine something like this spreading like wildfire because it has been genetically engineered inside a COVID shell. A Zombie apocalypse can be real and quite possible. Imagine "The walking dead" kind of world, except 10x worse since the zombies can actually run instead of just walk slowly. If your SHTF rifle dies on you, you are in deep kimchi. And hiding in your secure position may not help you.


Watch and be scared enough to prepare.
 

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Trigger info is nice to know as that was one of the early criticism of the Hellion.

Now, the better question for you is, During SHTF, would you rather be holding an AR or a Hellion? Why?
TBH, I'm very well used to the AR manual of arms so that's probably my first choice in a SHTF/Boog scenario. That said, the manual of arms for the Hellion can be adapted to with enough training to develop muscle memory.

If I'm running a can, PEQ or some kind of DBAL though, I'd take the Hellion or X95 due to balance. A nose heavy rifle, even with a 14.5" barrel can become very fatiguing.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 · (Edited)
TBH, I'm very well used to the AR manual of arms so that's probably my first choice in a SHTF/Boog scenario. That said, the manual of arms for the Hellion can be adapted to with enough training to develop muscle memory.

If I'm running a can, PEQ or some kind of DBAL though, I'd take the Hellion or X95 due to balance. A nose heavy rifle, even with a 14.5" barrel can become very fatiguing.
Thanks, some good insights.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Here's what odin posted on another thread. I transferred it here so that we can discuss his points.

Spoken like a guy whos never had to haul a rifle all day..
Oz equal pounds..Pounds equal pain. The lighter your rifle the less pain you will endure carrying it around for hours, days or even weeks.
Also makes it easier to hold and shoot offhand the lighter it is..(you know..for those 200 yard head shots)..

Honestly if you have to Bang zombie heads (which sounds kinda sexual) your probably in a bad situation your not gonna get out of.

The Hellion trigger is described by several reviewers as a bullpup trigger. Some reviewers said the trigger pull was 5-8lbs (heavy) and creepy (I actually think the same rifle was shuttled around to several reviewer as the trigger pull got lighter as more rounds were put through it.) I I also haven't had my hands on one..so maybe that will change my mind... The RDB is the best factory Trigger your going to find in a bullpup (I believe this is mostly due to the way the internal are arranged and its not the same as the other bullpups). I enjoy that trigger over my single stage timmney trigger in my AR..My only mod is an overtravel piece of kydex, so it when the trigger breaks the shot, it no longer can move rearward. Its better than my RFB trigger and my MDR trigger needed to see a gun smith before I could tolerate shooting it for long sessions (It was creepy and im a trigger snob).

What makes the AR superior to the RDB or heck any bullpup? (Literally the standard every gun is judged by)

1.) Weight. A good Ar start of weighting less than any Bullpup (pounds equal pain)
And they can get lighter or heavier depending on what you want them to do.

2.) Modularity. There is really nothing an AR cannot be.. Bolt gun, Single shot, semiauto, beltfed, pump action..
can be any caliber from 22lr to 50bmg (at least using the same lower)..
Dont like that stock..Switch it out for something better (or kinda cool like the strike industries guys)..or a fixed stock for the Ultimate in zombie smashing..
Dont want Direct impingement (which there isn't a bullpup that is this yet)..Go piston driven...or convert your DI gun to a drop in piston system..
Dont like your gas block? Well there are options ranging from low profile to adjustable systems. Carbine length to rifle length.
Dont like the caliber your AR came in? You can modify an AR to shoot pistol rounds.. Other intermediate rounds (300blk or 6.8 Grendel) or Ultra silly powerful rounds like 50 Beowulf or 458 socom..
Ar too long or too short? It can be as short as 8 inches or as long as 24 inches.. Multiple barrel types, profiles and constructions as well
Dont like your trigger? There are so many triggers that range from Milspec (icky), to super match triggers (mmhm) that I'm not even going to bother listing them all..

3.) Want your gun to be more accurate?(This is why I really haven't touched any of the 2000$ bullpups like the Tavor, Fn FS2000 or the AUG..) You can build a moa (or better) AR for about half the cost of the bullpups.

Customize the guns components to be an ultralight race gun or a "super duty" use rifle.
Wanna shoot tiny groups at minute of eyeball..We have barrels and bolt combinations that can do that and better.
Wanna cheap beater for 450$..We got it..Wanna finely tuned "extra" Ar we got those too for moderate to stupid expensive.
Theres really a scale from Budget to Best AR makers in the industry.. Bullpups dont really have that..Bullpups are either commercial (where they are trying to innovate) or military imports where RND monies have been spent specifically for combat operations. Where you can get a decently accurate 556 bullpup for...as low as 650$ (Pre covid) that competed alright against budget ARs..to spending 2000$ for a bullpup that is FAR outclassed by any AR half it price much less AT the same price.

You asked about a Direct adaptation of the military rifle?
Colt (thats who made the original M16 and M4..),FN...HK..Barret..Daniel Defense (that also do a faithful recreation of the stoner design) Knight's Armament. (these checks all the boxes for reliability and durability.) . We've even got ARs that are SUPERIOR to military grade (which can include the previously mentioned names)..with names like: LMT, Noveske, BCM, POF, LaRue. ect..
(You notice alot of these names also have military contracts..)

The AR is superior to the bullpup because Everyone makes something for it and have been refining it to be better than it was in the 60's or the 90's. Its the Kid who has EVERYTHING and ANYTHING you want on that rifle can be changed. From the smallest parts to the biggest ones..You cant do that on a Bullpup. The only other rifle that comes close in options here in the US is the AK..and that has taken off like a rocket since 2000's

IF any bullpup had THAT many options, and people making stuff for it..It would be good but still not better than an AR as its been the king of low cost Hi-quality parts for a very long time.
There is also generally someone (maybe multiple someone's) who is going to know enough to diagnose/service a broken AR at any training class.

Bullpups are generally only made by a single company...Unless its a commercial gun..theres really no innovation (dont bring anything new that other Military bullpups dont already do)


**You must not live in the US..As you would know you cant get the BR-18 or QBZ-97 here in the US.
 

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I am in the process of assembling a PSA Marauder Style 5.56 AR-15 Pistol. I just ordered a PSA Lower with SBA3 brace, Upper with 7.5" Barrel, 10x 32Round Mags, Bushnell 4-12x50 Scope, Red Dot and Laser w/ Light and parts to build a Form1 suppressor. Total ~$660.24, since I already have some of the parts from my M4 here. Estimated weight of this Pistol should be less than 7 lbs. Estimated length should be less than 30" with suppressor. This should complete my SHTF rifle. This should be adequate for urban fighting up to 200yds. I don't believe this pistol will be able to print 4MOA, so I might reexamine the Hellion at some future date.

I am man enough to acknowledge if I was wrong. Odin and others were right about the ease and availability of AR15 parts. I don't believe I have the best configuration or parts, but at least I can buy 3x of these for the price of a single Hellion. The financial advantage was just too attractive for me not to go with the AR platform.
The problem with a 7.5" AR chambered in 223/5.56 is that you give up too much ballistically. The velocity loss really affects the terminal performance of a 55 to 75gr pill, and as such, would advise going no shorter than 12.5". Personally, my SHTF rifle is a 14.5" M4; I find anything shorter than 10.5 pointless... kinda like a bull with udders. If you really want a short AR, then may I suggest 300 BO. If you hand load, you can develop your own subs as well. The 300BLK platform truly excels when it comes to subsonic performance inside of 150 yards.

Also, because there's so much powder still being burnt as that projectile leaves the muzzle, it's still going to be loud AF with a suppressor on. Most suppressors don't take kindly to such short barrels as well, and you'll end up eroding that first blast baffle very quickly.

Finally, I don't have anything against PSA. I think they're a great company that fills a particular niche in the gun market. That said, I've found throughout the years that you typically get what you pay for. Not saying PSA guns or parts are all bad, but I've seen some things that were slightly out of spec that could cause issues with other in-spec components. I've also had $$$ guns that were lemons (cough POF cough), but most upper-tier manufacturers/assemblers generally tend to invest more in QC than others.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 · (Edited)
The problem with a 7.5" AR chambered in 223/5.56 is that you give up too much ballistically. The velocity loss really affects the terminal performance of a 55 to 75gr pill, and as such, would advise going no shorter than 12.5". Personally, my SHTF rifle is a 14.5" M4; I find anything shorter than 10.5 pointless... kinda like a bull with udders. If you really want a short AR, then may I suggest 300 BO. If you hand load, you can develop your own subs as well. The 300BLK platform truly excels when it comes to subsonic performance inside of 150 yards.

Also, because there's so much powder still being burnt as that projectile leaves the muzzle, it's still going to be loud AF with a suppressor on. Most suppressors don't take kindly to such short barrels as well, and you'll end up eroding that first blast baffle very quickly.

Finally, I don't have anything against PSA. I think they're a great company that fills a particular niche in the gun market. That said, I've found throughout the years that you typically get what you pay for. Not saying PSA guns or parts are all bad, but I've seen some things that were slightly out of spec that could cause issues with other in-spec components. I've also had $$$ guns that were lemons (cough POF cough), but most upper-tier manufacturers/assemblers generally tend to invest more in QC than others.
I've considered longer barrels, but that would make the rifle too long for my liking. My new suppressor design which I am currently evaluating is 1.7"x10" so that makes my total barrel length to be 22.5" making the rifle ~38"-40" long. Too long for my liking. And I will be putting another 7-8" for a bayonet. That makes my rifle 4' long...yikes

I figured 7" would be good up to 200yds. If I encounter hostiles at over 200yds, I guess I run. Is there an equivalent commercial load to the +P+ load for 5.56?

I have considered 300Blk, but ammo is scarce and would even be scarcer during SHTF. I can not do my own hand loads. Takes too much time and effort. Besides, I would not be able to stock the amount that I will likely need during SHTF. Ammo supply during SHTF would have to be from scavenging.

That is why I hate AR platforms. Too much compromise.

Yeah, PSA might not have the best quality. But going for the best quality would make the price too high negating the advantage of going for the AR platform. Might as well go for the Hellion at that point.
 

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On the contrary, I find the AR to be one of the most versatile platforms around today. Its modularity and ease of construction allows one to spec out an AR to fit almost any mission requirement. That said, its balance with a suppressor and any other ancillary devices leaves a lot to be desired, but not something that can't be overcome with enough training.

To each their own, really... But in a post apocalyptic scenario, I'd rather be armed with something I know I can easily get parts for. Since bullpups aren't that popular in the USA, getting things like bolts, extractors, or ejector springs won't be easy to obtain. On the other hand, almost everyone I know here has at least one AR-15 in their safe or closet.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
On the contrary, I find the AR to be one of the most versatile platforms around today. Its modularity and ease of construction allows one to spec out an AR to fit almost any mission requirement. That said, its balance with a suppressor and any other ancillary devices leaves a lot to be desired, but not something that can't be overcome with enough training.

To each their own, really... But in a post apocalyptic scenario, I'd rather be armed with something I know I can easily get parts for. Since bullpups aren't that popular in the USA, getting things like bolts, extractors, or ejector springs won't be easy to obtain. On the other hand, almost everyone I know here has at least one AR-15 in their safe or closet.
True... but too much compromise.

As I mentioned in one of my responses. The idea that ARs would be easier to find during SHTF is illusory. If either of our rifles break down, what's stopping me from picking up an AR and moving on. The rifle you carry initially appears irrelevant to the grand scheme of things. You can find AR parts when your rifle breaks down; me ... I just throw away my broken Hellion and just pick up that rifle which would have supplied the parts for your rifle. Either way, we both have working rifles to proceed with.
 

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I’d probably choose the Hellion for nothing other than reliability. My RDB has been such a little princess when it comes to the ammo it likes and all the extraction and jamming issues - it’s just a range toy for me (a fun one at that).
 

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I’d probably choose the Hellion for nothing other than reliability. My RDB has been such a little princess when it comes to the ammo it likes and all the extraction and jamming issues - it’s just a range toy for me (a fun one at that).
Maybe send that lil princess back to the mother ship to straighten her out..

I also want a Hellion..but I ain't paying 2500 for one..At that price ..ill see what I can get used..or wait for the Rm277/Berretta Genesis to come out to the Civy market.
 
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