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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
The wind was light today so I decided to shoot groups at 400 meters with decent ammo. The ammo used was federal 62 grain fusion and speer golddot 62 grain ammo. the Federal ammo isn't that accurate but the golddot is pretty good generally.

I used my old ACOG TA01, it's so old the tritium lamp is out but other than that is still rocking on.
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quick 200 meter target to make sure it's zero'ed enought to move out to 400.

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first 400 meter group, federal fusions. Needs some scope adjustments.
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speer golddot (circled)400 meters, I pulled one.
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Last federal fusion group, ACOG adjusted, was using propper 400 yard stadia line. needs one more click left I think but pretty good.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
None of these groups were benched, they were shot off the top of my car since I couldnt shoot prone due to high grass. I have some military 262mod0 ammo (77grn dmr ammo) i will try next. Will try to measure it next time.
 

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Last I shot the RDB at 400 yards, I was getting about 10" 10 shot groups. That compares to 3" groups with my AR15 with the same ammo.
Some more details would be nice, there are a lot of variations on the "AR15" out there... Can't say I know too many run-of-the-mill types that are sub MOA as you claim yours to be.

You running something accurized/high end?
 

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Really, some of you think that 3" groups at 400 is doubtful. Maybe you need to shoot better guns, or practice. That is match grade (69 grain Noslers) ammo and free floated barrels. Not any tall claim at all, more routine.
 

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Really, some of you think that 3" groups at 400 is doubtful. Maybe you need to shoot better guns, or practice. That is match grade (69 grain Noslers) ammo and free floated barrels. Not any tall claim at all, more routine.

If so, then comparing a RDB to an AR-15 match rifle is like comparing a Chevy to a Ferrari. Both do the job of delivering a bullet down range but there is a difference in performance.
 

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Really, some of you think that 3" groups at 400 is doubtful. Maybe you need to shoot better guns, or practice. That is match grade (69 grain Noslers) ammo and free floated barrels. Not any tall claim at all, more routine.
what are we talking...3 inch 4-5 shot groups? and what do you consider routine? are we talking 10 out of 10 times routine or..."yeah i've done it once....once...."
 

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On most any day, I can take my match AR15 to the range and shoot 3" 5 shot groups at 400 yards. I'd guess 8 of 10 times if the wind is not shifting too much. I am baffled as to why you all think that is anything amazing. Most of the guys I shoot with do the same thing.

Match triggers, match grade barrels, FF handguards, and hand loaded match ammo. Yes, premium gear, but it is really not anything anomalous with a match grade AR and an accomplished shooter. I shoot about 20K of .223 a year and typically shoot groups 5 or 6 times a month. When the groups open up, I know my barrel is close to being shot out, and I have shot out half a dozen AR15 barrels. The last two Pronghorn I shot were at 430 and 680 yards, the last 3 coyotes at 132, 510 and 780 yards. I practice shooting long range on a regular basis and shoot LR matches as well.

The RDB though, is not delivering that kind of accuracy. That is the only reason I said anything. Sometimes folks get all wrapped up about a particular gun not shooting what they are used to, or what they think it should deliver. Based on comparisons with my (match grade) ARs, the RDB delivers groups about 3 times or more. That was, and is, my only point.
 

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On most any day, I can take my match AR15 to the range and shoot 3" 5 shot groups at 400 yards. I'd guess 8 of 10 times if the wind is not shifting too much. I am baffled as to why you all think that is anything amazing. Most of the guys I shoot with do the same thing.

Match triggers, match grade barrels, FF handguards, and hand loaded match ammo. Yes, premium gear, but it is really not anything anomalous with a match grade AR and an accomplished shooter. I shoot about 20K of .223 a year and typically shoot groups 5 or 6 times a month. When the groups open up, I know my barrel is close to being shot out, and I have shot out half a dozen AR15 barrels. The last two Pronghorn I shot were at 430 and 680 yards, the last 3 coyotes at 132, 510 and 780 yards. I practice shooting long range on a regular basis and shoot LR matches as well.

The RDB though, is not delivering that kind of accuracy. That is the only reason I said anything. Sometimes folks get all wrapped up about a particular gun not shooting what they are used to, or what they think it should deliver. Based on comparisons with my (match grade) ARs, the RDB delivers groups about 3 times or more. That was, and is, my only point.
the train of thought is off the shelf accuracy. many enthusiasts hate to hear this...but there's no competing against the AR market period. customization, to quality of materials, availability, options...no comparison. vaguely, mentioning "my AR15 shoots 3 inch groups" will only have your peers asking more questions.

can you speak to quality of materials as you mention going through barrels often? the talk with bullpups is always 'battle proven' and 'reliability' which lead many to believe chrome lining is the only solution and may very well be. what's your take on this as i've read chrome lining isn't the best solution for accuracy?

basically, where do you feel the RDB could improve as it's proving to be up there with the best with regard to off the shelf accuracy on the bullpup side of the market?
 

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Yeah, the Chevy vs Ferrari comparison isn't quite it. More like a competitive NHRA Pro Stock Chevy vs a Chevy off the showroom floor. I am not sure why you would bother to point out your super-accurized rifle shoots better than your not-super-accurized-rifle, but I suppose it does at least imply that you are a competent shooter, and further that a competent shooter can't achieve .75moa with the RDB. Then again, bullpups are more difficult to shoot accurately than conventional rifles IMO.
 

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NiB or Melonite are my two favorite treatments for hard use long-guns. Chrome lining is old school at this point in the firearms timeline and the failure points, especially with DI guns, are prevalent around the gas port. Less of an issue with piston guns, but still, not as good as melonite. A CHF barrel is next in line for me, then stainless, but there are trade-offs of course. A Stainless that is hand-lapped is the best for accuracy, but they don't last as long either.

The RDB has Melonite, which I believe is the best solution for this platform. I am a materials/forensics engineer and I have two barrel designs on the market so I am not just talking out of my butt either.

I have been running drills with the RDB and it is even at the front of some of my rifle shooting videos I have been making this fall and winter. My only issue so far with the RDB is verification of a clear firearm. I have considered a tactical LCI, but I hate that in most cases, that is also a reliability degrader. I don't want a window either. For now, I use a finger to check clear. When I am running drills in a CQB simulation, I have to be able to clear and confirm on the order of a few seconds...that takes some work with the RDB.

I think a thicker barrel could help, but I would not want to give up the weight...it is already a bit heavier than I prefer for a carbine for 300 and in.
 

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Last I shot the RDB at 400 yards, I was getting about 10" 10 shot groups. That compares to 3" groups with my AR15 with the same ammo.
...I have two barrel designs on the market so I am not just talking out of my butt either..
So, why do you even own a lowly RDB if you have such superb weapons?
Or why go on telling us how stinky the RDB is in comparison?

Oh, you sell highly accurate barrels for the AR.
 

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I am not sure why you would bother to point out your super-accurized rifle shoots better than your not-super-accurized-rifle
Because it demonstrates that the ammo and the shooter are both capable of that accuracy, and therefore the much worse accuracy with the RDB is most likely due to the rifle itself. In principle it could instead be due to a mis-match between the ammo (handloads tuned for that particular AR-15) and the RDB, but the large 10" vs. 3" accuracy gap makes that seem pretty unlikely.

Note that no one has yet demonstrated "Ferrari" nor "NHRA Pro Stock Chevy" level accuracy from any RDB, nor any RFB, anywhere. Not one. We simply don't know what it might take to get MOA or better accuracy with these Kel-Tec designs, and we don't even know what approaches (if any) Kel-Tec has tried. We do know that Kel-Tec originally planned a long-barrel (30 inches or more) sniper variant of the RFB but never brought it to market, probably because its accuracy wasn't good enough to be of any interest to long range shooters.

MarkCO, FWIW, as you might or might not already know, on many boards, no one believes stories of 5-shot groups, and especially not 3 inch at 400 meter groups; the common attitude is "photos of your 10-shot group or it didn't happen", apparently due to repeated exposure to bragging liars. This may be the source of some of the pushback you've gotten in this thread. That said, the comparison you gave is valuable information, thank you for posting it.
 
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