[Sam The Eagle]

I agree, i wouldn't lock and load anything with a free float pin unless safe to do so. i'll take a pic of one of my primers next time im at the range for reference.

Thanks a bunch! I just want to see how bad this is for other RDBs, as mine is definitely borderline...

 

[IamScotticus]

Did I start a slam fire-fire?
This is nothing new. Nor is there anything new about maintaining muzzle integrity at all times. However the occurrences I have read of others having "slam-fires" (their description, not mine) and "doubles" has created, for me anyway, the necessity to observe a greater caution and respect for the firearm, and arms in general. If anyone remembers that recently, an RDB grenaded in the hands of a mere boy (no injuries thank God).
I don't make this stuff up; I go by what shooters report in the threads. They don't always start new threads, often just interjecting, "yea, the other day my RDB did ***" inside an existing thread. So you have to read a lot to see the reports. I pretty much read everything RDB with a few exceptions like "How many out there?" or "What did you pay for yours?". I probably should read those; I might be missing some good non sequiturs.

There are negligent and accidental discharges. I can't help you with the negligents, those are the fault of the user. But slam fires and doubles are accidents, and should be engineered out of the weapon. But we can't have everything. Even the AR can be accidently loaded if struck down on its butt hard enough. Possible with the RDB?
Id' like to find out, but not by accident.

 

[Sam The Eagle]

Did I start a slam fire-fire?
This is nothing new. Nor is there anything new about maintaining muzzle integrity at all times. However the occurrences I have read of others having "slam-fires" (their description, not mine) and "doubles" has created, for me anyway, the necessity to observe a greater caution and respect for the firearm, and arms in general. If anyone remembers that recently, an RDB grenaded in the hands of a mere boy (no injuries thank God).
I don't make this stuff up; I go by what shooters report in the threads. They don't always start new threads, often just interjecting, "yea, the other day my RDB did ***" inside an existing thread. So you have to read a lot to see the reports. I pretty much read everything RDB with a few exceptions like "How many out there?" or "What did you pay for yours?". I probably should read those; I might be missing some good non sequiturs.

There are negligent and accidental discharges. I can't help you with the negligents, those are the fault of the user. But slam fires and doubles are accidents, and should be engineered out of the weapon. But we can't have everything. Even the AR can be accidently loaded if struck down on its butt hard enough. Possible with the RDB?
Id' like to find out, but not by accident.

Not sure where the slam fire started, but it niftily reminded me of the harder than usual freely moving firing pin dents on unfired caps when ejected w/o firing.

Yes, any and all firearms are to be treated with same care, caution and respect as you'd exercise with power tools--be it a nailgun, chainsaw, etc. Hell, I'd recommend taking it easy with other tools, too--I know way too many axe, knife, etc. accidents that could've been avoided with a drop of good ol' common frickin' sense! Any given firearm has only three real safeties = Trigger Finger, Muzzle Control, and Brains. The rest to me are "feel-good" add-ons. Nothing more, nothing less--except that some of them can also get untrained people to turn graveyard dead when safety is on and the tool needs to go BANG...

And yes, every firearm ever manufactured possesses a chance to go ka-boom. A lot of times I look at the higher priced tools and equate the higher price with proven track record of no critical failures during X years of service and estimated X number of shots fired. And especially if the tool was used professionally in high-stress/high-risk environments for a prolonged time very successfully. For example, an older production of P226 is an amazing tool you pay dearly for, but... I rest my case.

I don't want to start a scene with this but it is worth stating: for example, Glocks are way overpriced, but they have decades long and millions and millions of rounds fired track record with maybe 1-2 tool-borne critical failures that I am aware of. I don't count human stupidity inflicted ka-booms...

On the same note there are pistols that cost $1,500+ without any other track record than being bought by people with excessive amounts of disposable income and no understanding that price does not always equal quality in this world. Would I trust my life on inadequately field tested firearm with that price tag? Nope. I wouldn't even buy it to be honest.

Kel-Tecs, in general, are not aimed at the professional customer "community" (in general and I am aware of some paramil groups adopting KSG, maybe RDB as well) and I doubt they'd pass the rigorous testing that mil arms go through. I also treat them as such and don't assign one for a mission that it is not proven to be able to handle properly. I consider them innovations and thus very interesting pieces of machinery. I buy them because I want to support American innovation, not just deal out cash for the same ol' *** in a different packaging. You only need 5 or ten ARs is my point.

 

[Sam The Eagle]

View media item 1862
As promised. These are two cartridges chambered by an AR and RDB. Both by releasing the bolt to slam home stripping a round from the mag.

It's a pretty clear difference between the two and unfortunately the camera couldn't capture the fact that the whole cap is dented inwards around the dimple on the RDB cartridge whereas the AR cartridge has a surface mark, which is common in these cases.

Curious what level of denting others are seeing in this same case?

 

[Randog]

The bolt is traveling twice the distance on the RDB to chamber a round VS an AR. I guess a firing pin spring would have been a good idea.. Oh wait.

 

[Sam The Eagle]

The bolt is traveling twice the distance on the RDB to chamber a round VS an AR. I guess a firing pin spring would have been a good idea.. Oh wait.

Yup, and it sure hits the primer pretty good, as you can see from the picture.

I always have my muzzle pointed at a target when I release the bolt, so I take it I am getting a level ground for the pin to travel (i.e. without gravitational effects).

Makes you wonder if pointing the barrel down while releasing the bolt would be enough boost by gravity to set off a more sensitive primer? Nope, not going to test it, but something to be mindful of if you tend to release bolt while muzzle is down...

So does anyone know the exact reason / rationale for removing the spring? Too many light primer strikes, I suppose, but... <shaking head> lighter spring, anyone? BUELLER!!!

 

[Randog]

I think it must have been light strikes as well.. But just a slightly heavier hammer spring would do the trick with a firing pin compression spring providing a only a
few ounces of resistance. Or, a slightly heavier hammer weight.

 

[Sam The Eagle]

I think it must have been light strikes as well.. But just a slightly heavier hammer spring would do the trick with a firing pin compression spring providing a only a
few ounces of resistance. Or, a slightly heavier hammer weight.

Couldn't agree more and the end result would've been inarguably better.

 

[Gregory Dandridge]

I wish there were more options in the poll, because I didn't find the one I wanted to check.

___ No problems to report - couldn't be happier

My runner up RDB complaint would be:

___ No 300 Blackout RDB

The RDB is a relatively new platform, and it's not another 1911 or another AR-15. There's a lot of new stuff in the RDB. There are bound to be some issues in the first year or two with a new platform. It's this way with all mechanical devices. You've probably heard an admonition against buying the first model year of a new car. As issues arise, Kel-Tec will address them. The RDB has a lifetime warranty so Kel-Tec will be fixing any problems, so they're in a great place to know about the problems and they're strongly motivated to fix the problems.

People show up on manufacturer specific firearms forums to post about problems they've had, and that's natural. The majority of us who aren't having problems aren't starting threads entitled, "RDB - Still Running Great". The forum therefore skews the results to exaggerate the percentage of RDB owners who are having problems. It's a well known phenomenon known as reporting bias (and you probably thought that was only the Fake News. ).

It's good that KTOG members can discuss problems we're having. It helps us to understand these innovative firearms, lets us know what issues to watch for, and it might even add to Kel-Tec's understanding if some Kel-Tec representative pops over here to read the RDB forum, but please keep in mind that the overall return rate must be fairly low or Kel-Tec couldn't stay in business honoring the lifetime warranty.

It's frustrating when you're the one having the problems. It's easy to assume that most people are having similar problems. Knowing that many other people aren't having problems isn't much comfort. In fact, it can be very annoying and even infuriating.

Admittedly, I haven't yet run my RDB hard like I have many of my other Kel-Tecs. I have a few hundred rounds through it, so it's possible that I'll experience one or more of the problems listed in the poll if I start running and gunning with it. If there is a problem, I'll send my RDB to Kel-Tec for repair. If that happens, they'll probably do a full upgrade with all of the rolling improvements.

Until then, mark my RDB as "Winner, winner, chicken dinner."

I have 11 Kel-Tec firearms. PLR-16, SU-16, PLR-22, SU-22, PMR-30, CMR-30, KSG, RDB, Gen 1 9mm SUB-2000, Gen 1 40 SUB-2000 and Gen 2 9mm SUB-2000. I'm cuckoo for Kel-Tecs. Collectively, they have tens of thousands of rounds through them. I've replaced two firing pins. Otherwise, I shoot them and occasionally clean them. None have ever been returned to Kel-Tec, and I'm usually so impatient that I tend to buy Kel-Tec firearms soon after they're released when they are most likely to have teething problems. Maybe I've been lucky, but based on my experience I think most Kel-Tec owners have no problems and are very satisfied.

 

[Gregory Dandridge]

I really appreciate your post. I don’t own anything by Keltec. However, I am a tortured gun buyer. What I mean by that is I don’t buy a whole lot of guns. I research and research, agonize and consider before I buy. I try to settle on a platform that would be most versatile, reliable and accurate FOR THE MONEY.
I deliberate for weeks to months before I finally “pull the trigger” on any purchase. I’m in no way interested in being the first to buy anything. When I become interested in a new product, I almost always wait as long as possible after all the bugs are worked out before I buy.
All of that is why I’m here. I know the RDB platform has been out for about 4 years and I’m now considering buying one but I’ve been watching it for a couple of years. Unfortunately, the Keltec RDB platform doesn’t have the benefit of being “battle-tested” like my AK & AR platforms. My thinking is this, knowing a company stands by their lifetime warranties are of little value if I’m dead because one of their products failed at the absolutely worse time possible.
Thank you.

 

[RogueIV]

Of you have 2 battle tested rifles im not sure why you wouldnt use those in a crisis over the RDB. You can only use one rifle at a time. Also note that even the battle tested rifles can go south too, if you really want to overthink it.

 

[Gregory Dandridge]

Of you have 2 battle tested rifles im not sure why you wouldnt use those in a crisis over the RDB. You can only use one rifle at a time. Also note that even the battle tested rifles can go south too, if you really want to overthink it.

Thanks, I appreciate your reply. That’s why I’m here and why I deliberate. I want to find out if the RDB is a rifle I should avoid or “pick around” in a life-threatening situation or can I be relatively confident in grabbing it if it’s the closest thing to me if I need it. Sure, any machine can fail. That’s not my point. Likely reliability, combined with a good price is what I’m looking for. I’m attracted to the innovative concept of the RDB. But, I want to have as much confidence in it as I do my other platforms.

 

[BlakeHanson]

Thanks, I appreciate your reply. That’s why I’m here and why I deliberate. I want to find out if the RDB is a rifle I should avoid or “pick around” in a life-threatening situation or can I be relatively confident in grabbing it if it’s the closest thing to me if I need it...

I'd reach around the AR for the AK.
It has proven itself to be the most reliable with lack of maintenance, horrible conditions, abuse and terrible ammo.
Always goes bang.
The RDB is the same firepower of an AR in a smaller package.
Sure it has more :quote:problems:quote: than an AR.
Let's look at the top problems and whether they affect dependability in a firefight:
"Stubborn break down pins" means disassembly may be difficult if the pins are hard to get out.
Will it affect reliability in a firefight? No.

"US GI metal mags won't lock in" means the RDB doesn't like some US GI metal mags.
Almost all other mags work fine in it.
If you are using other mags will it affect reliability in a firefight? No.

"Rail screws walking out", if you know that you need to remove the rail screws and put loctite on them when you get the gun, will it affect reliability in a firefight? No.

Every RDB that has a problem will eventually end up here at KTOG. You will never hear a single word from the thousands that run like a song.
It's easy to look here and come away with the idea that the RDB has all kinds of problems.
:no:
It really doesn't.

Is it as reliable as an AK? No.
But neither is an AR.

 

[IamScotticus]

Good discussion here. The purpose of the thread is to flush out the issues, hear news of improvements, and help ppl get an awareness of the potential issues they might have because "forewarned is forearmed". The intent was never to deter someone from purchasing am RDB. I see it as an advisory thread. It is true, The problem children come here looking for answers and I hope they do! It is here they find the solutions, even if that means a trip to KT which isn't such a bad thing. I think its the best thing an RDB owner can do.
A battle rifle? Maybe if the firing pins didn't break, which Im beginning to suspect an overly hard hammer strike to be the culprit, affecting accuracy as well.
Need a SHTF bullpup? X95 all day long.

 

[IamScotticus]

Or, a slightly heavier hammer weight.

I can't imagine a heavier hammer! I think is responsible for the breaking pins.
perhaps with eliminating the spring, the cam can have thicker walls?

 

[BlakeHanson]

I can't imagine a heavier hammer! I think is responsible for the breaking pins.
perhaps with eliminating the spring, the cam can have thicker walls?

This seems to be a problem across multiple platforms.
The AR, the RFB, and the RDB all have had the end break off of the firing pin:

I think some of the 'magic' in the heat-treating process of the WW2 guns has been lost.
The button on the end of those wore out and almost never broke.
It's likely that it was a multi-step process (read:expensive/time-consuming), and they only follow the first few steps nowadays.

 

[Rotorflyr]

Need a SHTF bullpup? X95 all day long.

Just remember even the Tavor as nice as it may be had its growing pains before it got to where it is today and it’s been around a fair amount longer then the RDB and let’s also not forget that the RDB wasn’t really designed for a “combat” role, even if it can/will work as a “patrol” rifle.

 

[IamScotticus]

The RDB needs more rearward travel for the bolt, more dwell time for the ejection and a means to lock the gas adjustment in place to be "reliable". IMHO.
EDIT:
RDB also needs a way to keep the back end of the OP rod in its cup on the buffer.

 

[Gregory Dandridge]

I'd reach around the AR for the AK.
It has proven itself to be the most reliable with lack of maintenance, horrible conditions, abuse and terrible ammo.
Always goes bang.
The RDB is the same firepower of an AR in a smaller package.
Sure it has more :quote:problems:quote: than an AR.
Let's look at the top problems and whether they affect dependability in a firefight:
"Stubborn break down pins" means disassembly may be difficult if the pins are hard to get out.
Will it affect reliability in a firefight? No.

"US GI metal mags won't lock in" means the RDB doesn't like some US GI metal mags.
Almost all other mags work fine in it.
If you are using other mags will it affect reliability in a firefight? No.

"Rail screws walking out", if you know that you need to remove the rail screws and put loctite on them when you get the gun, will it affect reliability in a firefight? No.

Every RDB that has a problem will eventually end up here at KTOG. You will never hear a single word from the thousands that run like a song.
It's easy to look here and come away with the idea that the RDB has all kinds of problems.
:no:
It really doesn't.

Is it as reliable as an AK? No.
But neither is an AR.

Thank you, thank you, thank you! That’s the kind of thoughtful analysis I’m talking about! However, the items you intelligently listed and weighed their significance in a firefight are not my primary concern about the RDB. Not sure if I read it here or someplace else. It’s a phenomena of ejectors breaking. My understanding is the RDB design has dual ejectors. I imagine that’s required due to the rear downward ejection feature. I’d started reading about this a couple of years ago and THAT is primarily what has motivated my purchase delay. In full disclosure, this is my somewhat cheap, sneaky way of finding out before slapping down $900 or so hard earned bucks. A) is it part of a known pattern for RDB operators? B) does Keltec know about it? C) has Keltec fixed it?
A broken ejector could definitely impact a firefight, Yes!

 

[BlakeHanson]

Thank you, thank you, thank you! That’s the kind of thoughtful analysis I’m talking about! However, the items you intelligently listed and weighed their significance in a firefight are not my primary concern about the RDB. Not sure if I read it here or someplace else. It’s a phenomena of ejectors breaking. My understanding is the RDB design has dual ejectors. I imagine that’s required due to the rear downward ejection feature. I’d started reading about this a couple of years ago and THAT is primarily what has motivated my purchase delay. In full disclosure, this is my somewhat cheap, sneaky way of finding out before slapping down $900 or so hard earned bucks. A) is it part of a known pattern for RDB operators? B) does Keltec know about it? C) has Keltec fixed it?
A broken ejector could definitely impact a firefight, Yes!

I searched everywhere here and cannot find a single report or picture of a broken ejector.
If there were any, we'd have a couple.
Ejector pivot pin backing out on the early ones, yes.
Broken firing pin, yes.

"A) is it part of a known pattern for RDB operators? B) does Keltec know about it? C) has Keltec fixed it?"

If the problem doesn't exist, it's unlikely Kel-Tec knows about it or fixed it.
(we are still looking into Russian meddling though

)

Speaking of, instead of worrying about what might break on an RDB, spend a couple hundred on a drum attachment for your AK:

You won't need your AR or an RDB.