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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
If the RDB Barrel is not supposed to last that long (I'm guessing 5k-10k rounds), why not just use steel ammo. By the time you shoot 5k, the barrel is worn out and ready to be replaced anyways, and you would have saved enough for a new barrel. Heck, you might have saved enough for a new RDB.

I know some people say that Keltec does not sell Barrels today, but they might in the future.
 

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If the RDB Barrel is not supposed to last that long (I'm guessing 5k-10k rounds), why not just use steel ammo. By the time you shoot 5k, the barrel is worn out and ready to be replaced anyways, and you would have saved enough for a new barrel. Heck, you might have saved enough for a new RDB.

I know some people say that Keltec does not sell Barrels today, but they might in the future.
If this was an AR..Yea..you can buy a barrel and put it in (probably by yourself)..
Barrel life will depend entirely on how many rounds you put down the rifle a year.. If your doing several tactical classes a year..It might last 5-10k rounds, Or if you just like to go dumping thousands of rounds every range session (High volume enough that RO probably wont let you do so you'd need to be in the woods). At todays process I cant afford to shoot 5-10k rounds through 1 gun. But I do know Im around 5-6k through my RDB. Still printing great groups.

You can shoot steel cased ammo but its hard on the extractor and barrel replacement (if you can convince keltec to let you buy one) will have to be done by them.(The guy who made his custom 350 legend has told me he had a hellova time getting the barrel out of his Rdb..I also have no idea how they headspace the rifle.


I doubt they will sell barrels in the future..

The RFB has been out for 12 years and the Rdb has been out for 7. Its just not in their business plan to sell barrels (Chad from Keltec says that stuff they leave to the aftermarket..if it wants to do that), especially when their products fly off the shelves.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
If this was an AR..Yea..you can buy a barrel and put it in (probably by yourself)..
Barrel life will depend entirely on how many rounds you put down the rifle a year.. If your doing several tactical classes a year..It might last 5-10k rounds, Or if you just like to go dumping thousands of rounds every range session (High volume enough that RO probably wont let you do so you'd need to be in the woods). At todays process I cant afford to shoot 5-10k rounds through 1 gun. But I do know Im around 5-6k through my RDB. Still printing great groups.

You can shoot steel cased ammo but its hard on the extractor and barrel replacement (if you can convince keltec to let you buy one) will have to be done by them.I doubt they will sell barrels in the future..The RFB has been out for 12 years and the Rdb has been out for 7. Its just not in their business plan to sell barrels (Chad from Keltec says that stuff they leave to the aftermarket..if it wants to do that), especially when their products fly off the shelves.
Well, has anybody actually done a more rigorous study of how short barrel life is reduced. I am only aware of one experiment. Their conclusion was 6000 rounds for steel and 10,000 rounds for Brass - 40% reduction. Last time I checked, the price delta for steel vs brass was around $200 per 1000 rounds. So, in 5k, you would have saved $1000. Enough for a new RDB, wouldn't you say?

In other words, if your RDB last you 5k using steel, you could buy a new RDB every 5k rounds.

But I suspect, steel isn't that bad that it will cause your barrel to become useless in 5k. I suspect it will last longer than 5K if you clean it thoroughly after each range session.
 

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Well, has anybody actually done a more rigorous study of how short barrel life is reduced. I am only aware of one experiment. Their conclusion was 6000 rounds for steel and 10,000 rounds for Brass - 40% reduction. Last time I checked, the price delta for steel vs brass was around $200 per 1000 rounds. So, in 5k, you would have saved $1000. Enough for a new RDB, wouldn't you say?

In other words, if your RDB last you 5k using steel, you could buy a new RDB every 5k rounds.

But I suspect, steel isn't that bad that it will cause your barrel to become useless in 5k. I suspect it will last longer than 5K if you clean it thoroughly after each range session.
I think your missing the point as to who buys the RDB..
Folks who are seriously into training and lob thousands of rounds and break all the things, use an AR because parts are plentiful, available from multiple sources. Assuming you have the funds to afford all that..Which I know not everyone can.
Im on several sites that have RDB owners and none are doing high round count training. There's a few who compete with them..but again..they are going up against guys with ARs.

The Keltec guns have only has 1 source for parts..Keltec.And not all of them are available for sale.

You also assume everyone wants to re-buy and RDB..Right now they are 1k..over a year ago they were 650.Also finances for everyone is not the same so, Its cheaper for me to wear out my AR and buy another 150-400$ barrel then my RDB which could cost anywhere from 1000-1500 at todays prices. It might look like saving money, but for some folks we buy only what we can afford to shoot.
I say this as a guy who also handloads...Im sure I've saved a ton of money. But I don't have it now to buy another rifle.

However..There's nothing stopping your from conducting that same rigorous study.
 

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I have roughly 6500 rounds of steel through my RDB. With 69gr SMK hand loads, it's still holding about 1.5 to 1.7 MOA 10 shot groups. I haven't had to replace anything yet. The melonite treatment KT uses seems to be doing its job as far as barrel longevity goes. That said, I don't really do a lot of mag dumps or get the barrel overheated. Most people don't realize that it's heat that kills barrels, especially around the throat area. 5000 rounds of slow paced shots with time in between to cool the barrel, will introduce far less wear than someone who mag dumps 2000 rounds quickly.

Anyway, the only things I have to do with the RDB regularly is check the two front rail screws that thread into the gas block. I use blue loctite and put witness marks on the screws. I also have to remove the regulator knob and clean the threads every 1000 rounds or so to prevent carbon buildup. So far, so good.

Bottom line, with the money saved shooting steel, barrel replacements are nothing. Even replacing an entire rifle can be manageable.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
I have roughly 6500 rounds of steel through my RDB. With 69gr SMK hand loads, it's still holding about 1.5 to 1.7 MOA 10 shot groups. I haven't had to replace anything yet. The melonite treatment KT uses seems to be doing its job as far as barrel longevity goes. That said, I don't really do a lot of mag dumps or get the barrel overheated. Most people don't realize that it's heat that kills barrels, especially around the throat area. 5000 rounds of slow paced shots with time in between to cool the barrel, will introduce far less wear than someone who mag dumps 2000 rounds quickly.

Anyway, the only things I have to do with the RDB regularly is check the two front rail screws that thread into the gas block. I use blue loctite and put witness marks on the screws. I also have to remove the regulator knob and clean the threads every 1000 rounds or so to prevent carbon buildup. So far, so good.

Bottom line, with the money saved shooting steel, barrel replacements are nothing. Even replacing an entire rifle can be manageable.
You mentioned you do hand loads, do you have any experience with any commercial steel ammo at all? If so, which one and what was your experience with it. Was it accurate? not accurate? dirty? recoil?
 

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I buy whatever's cheap. Right now, I have about 1500 rounds left of the lacquer-coated 56gr Golden Tiger 223 made by Vympel. It's not bad, about 2 to 4 MOA depending on rifle. I paid 32 cents per round shipped.

As for hand loads, I usually make small batches of 25 to 50 of any given caliber at a time. My loads are focused more towards precision than pinking.

I use steel just for close quarter training to keep muscle memory.
 

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The RDB barrel is melonited/nitrided, and is 4140 I think. It’ll last as long as any basic AR barrel. High rates of fire causing severe barrel heat is what kills a barrel. The 6-10k tests done by Lucky Gunner/Andrew Touhy where with high sustained rates of fire, the point wasn’t to show exactly how long a barrel would last, but to demonstrate realistic differences in barrel wear between steel jacketed vs copper jacketed with sustained high rates of fire, along with other item wear.

But, the RDB as a SHTF rifle is a hideous idea. It’s a small production firearm that is cool but also fragile and is never going to have parts availability in large quantities.

I don’t mean this in a rude way, but for some post apocolyptic event you are going to be much better served with an AR.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
I don’t mean this in a rude way, but for some post apocolyptic event you are going to be much better served with an AR.
Maybe...

But I just don't like ARs. I didn't like it then, I don't like it now. I feel that performance has always been a compromise. Length for performance.

But now, there is a real alternative. The Hellion is awesome. This rifle has everything I want and need.

Can you point out AR advantages compared to the Hellion? I am not asking this to be snide or confrontational, I really want to know your opinion and what factors you consider and why you put the AR in such high regard.
 

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Maybe...

But I just don't like ARs. I didn't like it then, I don't like it now. I feel that performance has always been a compromise. Length for performance.

But now, there is a real alternative. The Hellion is awesome. This rifle has everything I want and need.

Can you point out AR advantages compared to the Hellion? I am not asking this to be snide or confrontational, I really want to know your opinion and what factors you consider and why you put the AR in such high regard.
Parts availability. In a SHTF scenario, you will always find other ARs. Same goes for AKs. Either is acceptable and anyone worried about such things would be wise to have at least one or more of each in their safe. I personally find ARs to be boring, but that doesn't mean I'm going to overlook one simply because everyone seems to have one. It's the fact that everyone seems to have one that I also have one in case I need it.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 · (Edited)
Parts availability. In a SHTF scenario, you will always find other ARs. Same goes for AKs. Either is acceptable and anyone worried about such things would be wise to have at least one or more of each in their safe. I personally find ARs to be boring, but that doesn't mean I'm going to overlook one simply because everyone seems to have one. It's the fact that everyone seems to have one that I also have one in case I need it.
That appears to be one clear advantage. The idea is that you can cannibalize ARs if your SHTF AR dies. Although I don't think ARs will simply be laying around during SHTF? It will probably be in other people's hands and those that are not will be in gun safes that you would be hard pressed to get into. You will have your hands full trying to find food, water, medicine and ammo than to be worrying about how to get into somebody's AR in their gun safe. And what is stopping me from picking up an AR if my SHTF rifle dies? So, the supposed "parts availability" advantages appears to be academic and illusory.

But then again, it is no more accurate than the RDB for which I seek to replace it with. And it is long. And it is no more reliable nor durable since it also is a "civilian" rifle and although it has a military lineage, it is NOT a military rifle.

Now, the Hellion on the other hand is a military rifle. And it appears to be built like a tank and has proven itself to be reliable and durable in Iraq and Afghanistan. It truly has military street cred much more so than any AR we could possibly buy. And early indications is that it is a sub-2MOA rifle. Certainly much better than the RDB. It is a tad heavier than the RDB but then again, that might be more advantageous to bang zombies head with.
 

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That appears to be one clear advantage. The idea is that you can cannibalize ARs if your SHTF AR dies. Although I don't think ARs will simply be laying around during SHTF? It will probably be in other people's hands and those that are not will be in gun safes that you would be hard pressed to get into. You will have your hands full trying to find food, water, medicine and ammo than to be worrying about how to get into somebody's AR in their gun safe. And what is stopping me from picking up an AR if my SHTF rifle dies? So, the supposed "parts availability" advantages appears to be academic and illusory.

But then again, it is no more accurate than the RDB for which I seek to replace it with. And it is long. And it is no more reliable nor durable since it also is a "civilian" rifle and although it has a military lineage, it is NOT a military rifle.

Now, the Hellion on the other hand is a military rifle. And it appears to be built like a tank and has proven itself to be reliable and durable in Iraq and Afghanistan. It truly has military street cred much more so than any AR we could possibly buy. And early indications is that it is a sub-2MOA rifle. Certainly much better than the RDB. It is a tad heavier than the RDB but then again, that might be more advantageous to bang zombies head with.
The extra weight of the Hellion is not an advantage. I've never known a soldier that wanted MORE weight to carry around. Also the Hellion has a horrible trigger. No one is making an upgraded trigger pack for it yet. Maybe someone like Timney or Geissele will like they did for the Tavor. But they don't now. And the ones for the Tavor aren't that much of an improvement.

As for having military street cred, you don't get much better than the M1 Garand, but I won't be humping mine around if the world goes to hell. Fast, reliable, light, maintainable, easy to feed - that's what you want in a EOTWAWKI or SHTF rifle, not something that looks cool in a comic book or video game.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 · (Edited)
The extra weight of the Hellion is not an advantage. I've never known a soldier that wanted MORE weight to carry around. Also the Hellion has a horrible trigger. No one is making an upgraded trigger pack for it yet. Maybe someone like Timney or Geissele will like they did for the Tavor. But they don't now. And the ones for the Tavor aren't that much of an improvement.

As for having military street cred, you don't get much better than the M1 Garand, but I won't be humping mine around if the world goes to hell. Fast, reliable, light, maintainable, easy to feed - that's what you want in a EOTWAWKI or SHTF rifle, not something that looks cool in a comic book or video game.
It's only about a pound heavier. Not that much. And the extra weight is justified due to its more robust construction. You can bang zombie's heads all day long, which you can't probably do with the RDB. LOL

Regarding the trigger, we haven't really tried it and compared it with the ARs or the RDBs. So, I'll reserve judgement on that. Do you expect it to be much worse than the RDBs? I don't expect it to be. Most early reviews indicate that it is satisfactory; not the best but not that bad either. Which bullpup trigger do you consider the best? All bullpup triggers will be expected to be worse than the ARs. That's just the nature of the beast. Yes, 3rd party trigger updates are welcome and it won't be long before somebody comes up with it. In fact, I won't be surprised if somebody did before the start of the spring or summer shooting season.

Comparing an aspect of the Hellion to some random aspect of some rifle (ie Garand) is silly. You can always find something that another rifle is superior in. That is not the point. The goal is the overall package. What are those set of qualities that satisfy most of your needs and wants. The Hellion checks the most number of boxes for me. Maybe it does not for you since you have a different set of needs and wants.

And believe you me, the looks and aesthetics while important is not on the top of the list. Why? do you really have the impression that I am that naïve to make looks the primary priority for my SHTF rifle? Before looking at the BR-18 and the RDB, I was considering the Chinese QBZ-97 rifle. And that is one ugly rifle but it has Military Creds.

You may be more informed in this, so tell me which commercial ARs are "direct" adaptation of a military rifle? In other words, it is the actual military rifle with only minor changes made from its military version. The Hellion is one such rifle. Tell me which commercial, civilian ARs are like that and I'll look at it and compare.
 

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It's only about a pound heavier. Not that much. And the extra weight is justified due to its more robust construction. You can bang zombie's heads all day long, which you can't probably do with the RDB. LOL

Regarding the trigger, we haven't really tried it and compared it with the ARs or the RDBs. So, I'll reserve judgement on that. Do you expect it to be much worse than the RDBs? I don't expect it to be. Most early reviews indicate that it is satisfactory; not the best but not that bad either. Which bullpup trigger do you consider the best? All bullpup triggers will be expected to be worse than the ARs. That's just the nature of the beast. Yes, 3rd party trigger updates are welcome and it won't be long before somebody comes up with it. In fact, I won't be surprised if somebody did before the start of the spring or summer shooting season.

Comparing an aspect of the Hellion to some random aspect of some rifle (ie Garand) is silly. You can always find something that another rifle is superior in. That is not the point. The goal is the overall package. What are those set of qualities that satisfy most of your needs and wants. The Hellion checks the most number of boxes for me. Maybe it does not for you since you have a different set of needs and wants.

And believe you me, the looks and aesthetics while important is not on the top of the list. Why? do you really have the impression that I am that naïve to make looks the primary priority for my SHTF rifle? Before looking at the BR-18 and the RDB, I was considering the Chinese QBZ-97 rifle. And that is one ugly rifle but it has Military Creds.

You may be more informed in this, so tell me which commercial ARs are "direct" adaptation of a military rifle? In other words, it is the actual military rifle with only minor changes made from its military version. The Hellion is one such rifle. Tell me which commercial, civilian ARs are like that and I'll look at it and compare.
Spoken like a guy whos never had to haul a rifle all day..
Oz equal pounds..Pounds equal pain. The lighter your rifle the less pain you will endure carrying it around for hours, days or even weeks.
Also makes it easier to hold and shoot offhand the lighter it is..(you know..for those 200 yard head shots)..

Honestly if you have to Bang zombie heads (which sounds kinda sexual) your probably in a bad situation your not gonna get out of.

The Hellion trigger is described by several reviewers as a bullpup trigger. Some reviewers said the trigger pull was 5-8lbs (heavy) and creepy (I actually think the same rifle was shuttled around to several reviewer as the trigger pull got lighter as more rounds were put through it.) I I also haven't had my hands on one..so maybe that will change my mind... The RDB is the best factory Trigger your going to find in a bullpup (I believe this is mostly due to the way the internal are arranged and its not the same as the other bullpups). I enjoy that trigger over my single stage timmney trigger in my AR..My only mod is an overtravel piece of kydex, so it when the trigger breaks the shot, it no longer can move rearward. Its better than my RFB trigger and my MDR trigger needed to see a gun smith before I could tolerate shooting it for long sessions (It was creepy and im a trigger snob).

What makes the AR superior to the RDB or heck any bullpup? (Literally the standard every gun is judged by)

1.) Weight. A good Ar start of weighting less than any Bullpup (pounds equal pain)
And they can get lighter or heavier depending on what you want them to do.

2.) Modularity. There is really nothing an AR cannot be.. Bolt gun, Single shot, semiauto, beltfed, pump action..
can be any caliber from 22lr to 50bmg (at least using the same lower)..
Dont like that stock..Switch it out for something better (or kinda cool like the strike industries guys)..or a fixed stock for the Ultimate in zombie smashing..
Dont want Direct impingement (which there isn't a bullpup that is this yet)..Go piston driven...or convert your DI gun to a drop in piston system..
Dont like your gas block? Well there are options ranging from low profile to adjustable systems. Carbine length to rifle length.
Dont like the caliber your AR came in? You can modify an AR to shoot pistol rounds.. Other intermediate rounds (300blk or 6.8 Grendel) or Ultra silly powerful rounds like 50 Beowulf or 458 socom..
Ar too long or too short? It can be as short as 8 inches or as long as 24 inches.. Multiple barrel types, profiles and constructions as well
Dont like your trigger? There are so many triggers that range from Milspec (icky), to super match triggers (mmhm) that I'm not even going to bother listing them all..

3.) Want your gun to be more accurate?(This is why I really haven't touched any of the 2000$ bullpups like the Tavor, Fn FS2000 or the AUG..) You can build a moa (or better) AR for about half the cost of the bullpups.

Customize the guns components to be an ultralight race gun or a "super duty" use rifle.
Wanna shoot tiny groups at minute of eyeball..We have barrels and bolt combinations that can do that and better.
Wanna cheap beater for 450$..We got it..Wanna finely tuned "extra" Ar we got those too for moderate to stupid expensive.
Theres really a scale from Budget to Best AR makers in the industry.. Bullpups dont really have that..Bullpups are either commercial (where they are trying to innovate) or military imports where RND monies have been spent specifically for combat operations. Where you can get a decently accurate 556 bullpup for...as low as 650$ (Pre covid) that competed alright against budget ARs..to spending 2000$ for a bullpup that is FAR outclassed by any AR half it price much less AT the same price.

You asked about a Direct adaptation of the military rifle?
Colt (thats who made the original M16 and M4..),FN...HK..Barret..Daniel Defense (that also do a faithful recreation of the stoner design) Knight's Armament. (these checks all the boxes for reliability and durability.) . We've even got ARs that are SUPERIOR to military grade (which can include the previously mentioned names)..with names like: LMT, Noveske, BCM, POF, LaRue. ect..
(You notice alot of these names also have military contracts..)

The AR is superior to the bullpup because Everyone makes something for it and have been refining it to be better than it was in the 60's or the 90's. Its the Kid who has EVERYTHING and ANYTHING you want on that rifle can be changed. From the smallest parts to the biggest ones..You cant do that on a Bullpup. The only other rifle that comes close in options here in the US is the AK..and that has taken off like a rocket since 2000's

IF any bullpup had THAT many options, and people making stuff for it..It would be good but still not better than an AR as its been the king of low cost Hi-quality parts for a very long time.
There is also generally someone (maybe multiple someone's) who is going to know enough to diagnose/service a broken AR at any training class.

Bullpups are generally only made by a single company...Unless its a commercial gun..theres really no innovation (dont bring anything new that other Military bullpups dont already do)


**You must not live in the US..As you would know you cant get the BR-18 or QBZ-97 here in the US.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Spoken like a guy whos never had to haul a rifle all day..
Oz equal pounds..Pounds equal pain. The lighter your rifle the less pain you will endure carrying it around for hours, days or even weeks.
Also makes it easier to hold and shoot offhand the lighter it is..(you know..for those 200 yard head shots)..

Honestly if you have to Bang zombie heads (which sounds kinda sexual) your probably in a bad situation your not gonna get out of.

The Hellion trigger is described by several reviewers as a bullpup trigger. Some reviewers said the trigger pull was 5-8lbs (heavy) and creepy (I actually think the same rifle was shuttled around to several reviewer as the trigger pull got lighter as more rounds were put through it.I I also havent had my hands on one..so maybe that will change my mind... The RDB is the best factory Trigger your going to find in a bullpup (I believe this is mostly due to the way the internal are arranged and its not the same as the other bullpups). I enjoy that trigger over my single stage timmny trigger in my AR..My only mod is an overtravel piece of kydex, so it when the trigger breaks the shot, it no longer can move rearward. Its better than my RFB trigger and my MDR trigger needed to see a gun smith before I could tolerate shooting it for long sessions (It was creepy and im a trigger snob).

What makes the AR superior to the RDB or heck any bullpup? (Literally the standard every gun is judged by)

1.) Weight. A good Ar start of weighting less than either (pounds equal pain)
And they can get lighter or heavier depending on what you want them to do.

2.) Modularity. There is really nothing an AR cannot be.. Bolt gun, Single shot, semiauto, beltfed, pump action..
can be any caliber from 22lr to 50bmg (at least using the same lower)..
Dont like that stock..Switch it out for something better (or kinda cool like the strike industries guys)..or a fixed stock for the Ultimate in zombie smashing..
Dont want Direct impingement (which there isn't a bullpup that is this yet)..Go piston driven...or convert your DI gun to a drop in piston system..
Dont like your gas block? Well there are options ranging from low profile to adjustable systems. Carbine length to rifle length.
Dont like the caliber your AR came in? You can modify an AR to shoot pistol rounds.. Other intermediate rounds (300blk or 6.8 Grendel) or Ultra silly powerful rounds like 50 Beowulf or 458 socom..
Ar too long or too short? It can be as short as 8 inches or as long as 24 inches.. Multiple barrel types, profiles and constructions as well
Dont like your trigger? There are so many triggers that range from Milspec (icky), to super match triggers (mmhm) that I'm not even going to bother listing them all..

3.) Want your gun to be more accurate?(This is why I really haven't touched any of the 2000$ bullpups like the Tavor, Fn FS2000 or the AUG..) You can build a moa (or better) AR for about half the cost of the bullpups.

Customize the guns components to be an ultralight race gun or a "super duty" use rifle.
Wanna shoot tiny groups at minute of eyeball..We have barrels and bolt combinations that can do that and better.
Wanna cheap beater for 450$..We got it..Wanna finely tuned "extra" Ar we got those too for moderate to stupid expensive.
Theres really a scale from Budget to Best AR makers in the industry.. Bullpups dont really have that..Bullpups are either commercial (where they are trying to innovate) or military imports where RND monies have been spent specifically for combat operations. Where you can get a decently accurate 556 bullpup for...as low as 650$ (Pre covid) that competed alright against budget ARs..to spending 2000$ for a bullpup that is FAR outclassed by any AR half it price much less AT the same price.

You asked about a Direct adaptation of the military rifle?
Colt (thats who made the original M16 and M4..),FN...HK..Barret..Daniel Defense (that also do a faithful recreation of the stoner design) Knight's Armament. (these checks all the boxes for reliability and durability.) . We've even got ARs that are SUPERIOR to military grade (which can include the previously mentioned names)..with names like: LMT, Noveske, BCM, POF, LaRue. ect..
(You notice alot of these names also have military contracts..)

The AR is superior to the bullpup because Everyone makes something for it and have been refining it to be better than it was in the 60's or the 90's. Its the Kid who has EVERYTHING and ANYTHING you want on that rifle can be changed. From the smallest parts to the biggest ones..You cant do that on a Bullpup. The only other rifle that comes close in options here in the US is the AK..and that has taken off like a rocket since 2000's

IF any bullpup had THAT many options, and people making stuff for it..It would be good but still not better than an AR as its been the king of low cost Hi-quality parts for a very long time.
There is also generally someone (maybe multiple someone's) who is going to know enough to diagnose/service a broken AR at any training class.

Bullpups are generally only made by a single company...Unless its a commercial gun..theres really no innovation (dont bring anything new that other Military bullpups dont already do)


**You must not live in the US..As you would know you cant get the BR-18 or QBZ-97 here in the US.
Please transfer this comments to the new comparison thread I created. It would be more helpful there and I will respond to you there.
 

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It's only about a pound heavier. Not that much. And the extra weight is justified due to its more robust construction. You can bang zombie's heads all day long, which you can't probably do with the RDB. LOL

Regarding the trigger, we haven't really tried it and compared it with the ARs or the RDBs. So, I'll reserve judgement on that. Do you expect it to be much worse than the RDBs? I don't expect it to be. Most early reviews indicate that it is satisfactory; not the best but not that bad either. Which bullpup trigger do you consider the best? All bullpup triggers will be expected to be worse than the ARs. That's just the nature of the beast. Yes, 3rd party trigger updates are welcome and it won't be long before somebody comes up with it. In fact, I won't be surprised if somebody did before the start of the spring or summer shooting season.

Comparing an aspect of the Hellion to some random aspect of some rifle (ie Garand) is silly. You can always find something that another rifle is superior in. That is not the point. The goal is the overall package. What are those set of qualities that satisfy most of your needs and wants. The Hellion checks the most number of boxes for me. Maybe it does not for you since you have a different set of needs and wants.

And believe you me, the looks and aesthetics while important is not on the top of the list. Why? do you really have the impression that I am that naïve to make looks the primary priority for my SHTF rifle? Before looking at the BR-18 and the RDB, I was considering the Chinese QBZ-97 rifle. And that is one ugly rifle but it has Military Creds.

You may be more informed in this, so tell me which commercial ARs are "direct" adaptation of a military rifle? In other words, it is the actual military rifle with only minor changes made from its military version. The Hellion is one such rifle. Tell me which commercial, civilian ARs are like that and I'll look at it and compare.
The Hellion is two pounds heavier without an optic, than my lightest AR with an optic. Odinforever2000 has done an excellent job of answering your other AR-related questions. As far as the zombie stuff, like I said in the other thread, it's not real. If you want to be taken seriously, leave the fantasy talk out of the discussion.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 · (Edited)
Whatever Dude. Are you so insecure that you can't stand somebody disagreeing with you? Something or someone pissed you off.

It's unfortunate that you have decided to throw a tantrum. Your post would have been fodder for some good discussion, but not here. Do it on the new thread that I created specifically for this kind of discussion.

OK, since you will not transfer your comments, I will transfer it for you. If you seek to discuss it, please go there. Otherwise, go ahead and continue insulting me. I don't mind. I have a thick skin.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
The Hellion is two pounds heavier without an optic, than my lightest AR with an optic. Odinforever2000 has done an excellent job of answering your other AR-related questions. As far as the zombie stuff, like I said in the other thread, it's not real. If you want to be taken seriously, leave the fantasy talk out of the discussion.
I will no longer respond to any insult in this thread. Please continue insulting me on the new thread I created for that purpose.
 

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My version of a SHTF rifle is a cheaper take on the WWSD2020 rifle. 5lbs 4oz empty with Holosun mounted. That's what I would be very comfortable carrying. AR parts are relatively cheap and available. The other end of the rifle spectrum would be my .50BMG Windrunner at 37lbs. Not a gun I want to hump farther than the 50yds from the car to the shooting bench at my local range. Parts for that are not cheap or readily available.
 
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