Range Report - P3AT vs P-32 *Update

Discussion in 'P-3AT' started by JusTom, Dec 1, 2007.

  1. JusTom

    JusTom New Member

    18
    Nov 29, 2007
    I went to the indoor range yesterday with my new P3AT and my P-32 for a side by side comparison. Before going I'd spent some time here on KTOG looking for all the info I could on the P3AT.

    I disassembled the P3AT for lube and inspection and saw that the spring hole was drilled too deep and the guide rod hole only had about a .015-.020 land. I called Kel Tec customer service and told him that I had read on the board about peening and had seen the pictures of the failures. I was told that you couldn't tell if it was going to be a problem until I shot it.

    I fired 50 rounds of Magtec and 50 rounds of Atlanta Arms & Ammo without any failures of the P3AT. I did see that there was a burr beginning to form on the guide rod hole. I'd applied some white gunsight paint to the front sight and dabbed some red paint on the rear sight but I was unable to see it with the low light in the range.

    I've been carrying my P-32 with a +1 magazine for a few years and hadn't shot it much but was glad that I was at the range when I experienced rim lock. The magazine had been loaded forever with a high end ammo, not sure if they were Hydro Shocks or Gold Dots. I had a smattering of different ammo's to shoot so I put one in the pipe and added a round to the magazine. First shot then rim lock, I didn't know what had happened until the range owner saw that I was having a problem and explained that I had .32 rim lock. Overall I fired 50 rounds of varying types, both ball and HP without anymore failures.

    I found that the sights on the P3AT are almost nonexistent and and as small as they are the sights on the P-32 were easier see. I shot at 10 yards with both guns and put more holes in the paper with the P-32 because of the sights.

    I see now that I need more practice with both guns to get myself to point-n-shoot proficiency.
     
  2. JFB

    JFB New Member

    Jul 25, 2005
    Re: Out of the Box - Range Report - P3AT vs P-32

    welcome to KTOG JusTom

    If you were aware of the thin guide hole in the slide, are you also aware of the nylon washers available?
     

  3. alamo

    alamo New Member

    Sep 12, 2004
    Re: Out of the Box - Range Report - P3AT vs P-32

    Sounds like you'd better get the KT mag spacer or make a Flyer wire for your P-32 or just use FMJ.

    Here's some more explanation of .32 rimlock:

    http://www.1bad69.com/keltec/rimlock.htm
     
  4. JusTom

    JusTom New Member

    18
    Nov 29, 2007
    Re: Out of the Box - Range Report - P3AT vs P-32

    Thanks Guy's! Great "how to" on the Flyer Wire, I'm gonna make one.

    I'd seen the washers for the P3AT spring/guide rod hole, but I only live a few miles from Kel Tec and I think I'll get them to root through their slides until they find a good one. Kel Tec told me that my JK series gun was a new one, hope they have some improved slides.

    When I bought the P-32 it didn't like one of the ammo's I tried so I went out to Kel Tec and they were great. They took the gun in the back and worked it over for me.

    It has to be a quality control problem, not checking every few batches for tolerances creeping. I wonder why once the problem was discovered the step in the manufacturing wasn't reset. It's only a matter of changing the tool and/or retouching the tool (zeroing).
     
  5. Doc_Mark

    Doc_Mark Member

    152
    Oct 18, 2007
    Re: Out of the Box - Range Report - P3AT vs P-32


    Hey, JFB,

    My KelTec P3AT has a fairly thick guide hole in the slide, but it's a bit funnel-shaped, from the inside. So, from the front, it appears quite thick and consistent, but from the inside, you can see the cone shape, wide at the most inside part, and narrow (thick) near the actual hole. Is this normal, and if not, should I add a washer, or return my little pistol to KT? Thanks for any thoughts about this. If needed, I can take some photos and post them here, to better illustrate the funnel shape. Take care, and God Bless!

    Every Good Wish,
    Doc Mark
     
  6. JFB

    JFB New Member

    Jul 25, 2005
    Re: Out of the Box - Range Report - P3AT vs P-32

    HERE is a past post discussing adding the washer. the funnel shape is the tip of the 1/4" drill bit used to make the pocket. From machining experance, a tappered bit will "drill" faster than "milling" with a flat tip. (nearly every body polled when this first occured had the funnel bottom, however my P3AT has a flat bottom)

    If you add a washer you may cause the springs to go solid befor the slide hits the frame. A little bit (0.030") is ok, maybe even good, but more than that will cause the spring to jump a coil at full recoil.

    IF your slide is thick enough, you could mill the bottom of the pocket to make it flat


    HERE is a post with the washers for sale (I assume N_A_S is still doing so)
     
  7. kimberbp22

    kimberbp22 Banned

    56
    Nov 9, 2007
    Re: Out of the Box - Range Report - P3AT vs P-32

    He doesn't need a washer. He need a properly drilled/machined slide from KT. Send the slide back and make them make it right. People fixing KT's mistakes this bad provides no incentives for KT to fix it themselves.
     
  8. JusTom

    JusTom New Member

    18
    Nov 29, 2007
    Re: Out of the Box - Range Report - P3AT vs P-32

    I agree JFB, a drill will drill faster. But this isn't like we'd have to do at home with a drill press and vice. They are using CNC machining centers, and the multi tool station CNC mills that are used should hold a .0001" (one ten thousandths of an inch) tolerance all day long as long as the tools are sharp and set up right. I don't know if they use conversational or G code machining centers but there's no need for the hole to end up tapered. The simple insertion of a "G-code" backup the Z feed ( less down feed), tool change and square the bottom of the hole. I think an M06 tool change command will spin the tool turret and present a 4 flute end mill to square the bottom of the spring hole leaving more of a surface for the guide rod to operate on, it would only take seconds.

    I agree kimberbp22, especially when they know that there is a problem. Don't get me wrong I think KT has a unique gun that fills my pocket and pocket book well. I just hate being a beta tester, this doesn't require a redesign.
     
  9. JFB

    JFB New Member

    Jul 25, 2005
    Re: Out of the Box - Range Report - P3AT vs P-32

    I agree 100%. Now for the funneled shaped bottom, years back there was even a "recomendation" going around to use a drill bit to make it easer to install the guide rod :-/. Maybe, that was why KT went to the drill tip verses mill end. Now as for as time, I would think the time savings would also be a second or less with a CNC

    If you look carefully at the use of the nylon insert, some consider it an added benifit. (i just happen to be one)
     
  10. JusTom

    JusTom New Member

    18
    Nov 29, 2007
    Re: Out of the Box - Range Report - P3AT vs P-32

    My hats off to you JFB for designing the washers and the gentleman that is taking the time to make and send the washers out. When I stop by KT next week to change my slide I'll see if they'll tell me about fixing the problem and give a report.
     
  11. JFB

    JFB New Member

    Jul 25, 2005
    Re: Out of the Box - Range Report - P3AT vs P-32

    ;)
     
  12. JusTom

    JusTom New Member

    18
    Nov 29, 2007
    Re: Out of the Box - Range Report - P3AT vs P-32

    I stand corrected, thanks for straightening me out. My hats still of to all those that have found a work around for the different problems.

    I ride a motorcycle full time and I know that it takes sometimes years for our "field engineering" and @#$@#ing to make it back up the food chain to resolve a problem.
     
  13. JFB

    JFB New Member

    Jul 25, 2005
    Re: Out of the Box - Range Report - P3AT vs P-32

    While the insert started out as a "work around" when this problem first appeared, my P3AT was milled flat, not peening, but I liked the concept and installed one in it and P32. I've even looked into a step drill to bore the guide hole out, square the bottom at a given thickness (0.04") so that the step would fit going out. I though about then using a metal insert (high Si SS), but the nylon offers a slight degree of flexibility so the ID can be maintained smaller with a longer thickness.

    the tilting of the guide rod during recoil limits how tight the ID can be as the thickness increases for original design.

    I don't think KT has seen this, and would expect them NOT to recomend it. But If they looked closely.....
     
  14. Doc_Mark

    Doc_Mark Member

    152
    Oct 18, 2007
    Re: Out of the Box - Range Report - P3AT vs P-32

    Hey, JFB,

    Many thanks for the washer information! I have sent NAS a PM, asking to place an order. I have yet to shoot my KelTec, but as soon as I saw that funnel-shaped hole, I began to worry, as it didn't look "right" to me. I hope, with the installation of the washer setup, any future problems will be prevented, completely. Thanks, again, and God Bless!

    Every Good Wish,
    Doc Mark
     
  15. JFB

    JFB New Member

    Jul 25, 2005
    Re: Out of the Box - Range Report - P3AT vs P-32

    If you didn't get a chance to read the history, you should look at THIS POST about spring stacking
     
  16. JFB

    JFB New Member

    Jul 25, 2005
    Re: Out of the Box - Range Report - P3AT vs P-32

    JusTom, If you could read the other ongoing post HEREabout the slide guide rod hole and see if Your serial number falls into the range shown
     
  17. Doc_Mark

    Doc_Mark Member

    152
    Oct 18, 2007
    Re: Out of the Box - Range Report - P3AT vs P-32

    Morning, JFB,

    Thanks, again.  I read that info, and will check out my P3AT, after church today.  Thanks, again, and God Bless!

    Every Good Wish,
    Doc Mark

    P.S. By the way, the serial # on my KT is "JCQXX". Didn't see that series on the posted list of offending serial number ranges, so maybe I'm OK. I must say that my pistol had no burrs, or machine marks inside it, when I first broke it down, and I was impressed by how smooth everything was inside. I just polished the feedramp, greased the rails with Rig Universal, and called it good. This morning, I also check the recoil guide rod hole in the slide, and it's not as funnel-shaped as I had at first thought. I can take some "up close" photos and post them here, if it would help. Thanks, again!

    Doc
     
  18. JFB

    JFB New Member

    Jul 25, 2005
    Re: Out of the Box - Range Report - P3AT vs P-32

    JCQXX would be about "J" pistol 43,200.  this would be about 13/14 weeks production from the last serial number in that list.


    If you read ALL the post back then, a little proud metal around that hole was normal after the first few rounds, but should stop.  
    The paper wrap rod was a rough way to determine if the work hardening (peening) around the hole was enough to allow the spring wire to get started and thus pulled out the slide

    Also, be sure the ends of the springs are "closed coiled" However that are not "closed ground", but a couple strokes with a GOOD file will flaten the end of the wire.

    There were some "open end" springs reported and I think that would make the problem even worse

    DIFINITION of spring ends
     
  19. JusTom

    JusTom New Member

    18
    Nov 29, 2007
    Re:  Range Report - P3AT vs P-32 *Update

    I took my P3AT out to the folks at KT today and they treated me with courtesy and fast service no questions asked. The tech returned my gun with a replaced slide and springs. She'd also polished the slide and test fired several types of ammo, all in less than 30 min. Now that's service! An A+ for their service Dept.

    I spoke with a longtime employee about the problem and I was told that there was a problem with a batch of material and that the engineers had thickened the guide hole by .008" and they were using a different type drill to do that step.

    Here's a few stat's that he threw out and I was impressed.

    Kel Tec manufactures 110,000 guns a year and has had problems with less than 5% of them

    Only Ruger and Glock make more guns a year.

    He threw out some other stats about the number of machined parts in the KT vs other mfg, but I don't remember the numbers.
     
  20. tommy51s

    tommy51s New Member

    159
    Oct 10, 2007
    Kansas City
    Re:  Range Report - P3AT vs P-32 *Update

    Thats some great info that (I think) we haven't seen before.