range report - 3 brands

Discussion in 'P-3AT' started by huckle, Aug 8, 2010.

  1. huckle

    huckle New Member

    270
    Jan 15, 2010
    My wife and I went out shooting:

    First we fired Herter's: 91 grain, steel case (Russia's Revenge).
    - FTE's like 40% of the time
    - Jammed her gun so bad I thought I was gonna have to take it to a gun smith. A live round got jammed so bad, I had to beat the barrel out the slide, then pry the round out with a knife. Hammer was kind stuck down too. Yikes. Got it put back together.

    We abandoned the Herter's after it nearly drove me to profanity.
    Switched to Lellier and Bellot (92gr):
    - Collectively we blew through a box (50rds) of those.
    - Did better but I still had quite a few FTE's. I was getting frustrated at this point.

    Then my wife suggested I kinda smack my magazine after loading it - patting it down and back against my hand. Hard to explain, but a buddy showed her that trick to help seat the rounds in the magazine. Seemed to help her have fewer FTE's. So, I did that THEN...

    We switched to PPU 94gr (Serbian stuff). At this point we were nearly done after fighting with the other stuff, but we collectively blew through about half a box.
    - MUCH smoother
    - No FTE'S (granted, we only shot a couple mag's of it).

    As usual, ANY suggestions, feedback are much appreciated. This is only the second time we've been out with these two P3AT's (serial #'s start with KRU## so I think they're fairly new).
     
  2. MphsTiger1981

    MphsTiger1981 New Member

    387
    Feb 4, 2010
    Huckle,

    A little more information might be useful for those reading your post.

    You mentioned the guns are pretty much new to you, I would be interested in the round count on each pistol, if you knew it or about what it was. Most manufacturers including Kel-Tec recommend about 200 rounds through the gun in order to break it in. FTE and FTF's can be common place during the break in period.

    I wouldn't panic just yet. I'd stick with the Sellier and Bellot brand simply because I'm familiar with the quality of their product. Run another 100 rounds or so through both guns and see how it progresses.

    I would also recommend the fluff and buff, although honestly, just breaking the gun down and cleaning it and then lubing it well is important and will help to make it run more efficiently.

    Good luck,

    Tiger.
     

  3. TxCajun

    TxCajun Administrator Staff Member Supporter

    Sep 7, 2004
    Texas
    Apparently, even Herters BRASS cased stuff is hit or miss in these guns.  It is cheap and dirty stuff.  I bought several hundred rounds some months back when 380 ammo was scarce but haven't tried it.  Since then I have a few seen a reports ranging from, "it worked ok," to "it was total crap" and wouldn't run in a gun that has eaten a dozen other brands.  Again, that was brass cased Herters.  

    The Herters STEEL cased is really asking for trouble.  In fact, I would avoid ANY steel cased ammo in these ultralight pistols.   After shooting that filthy ammo, clean the gun well, apologize for abusing it, and lube it like this.
    http://goldenloki.com/gunsmith/keltec/lube.htm

    Next time try several different brands of decent quality, brass cased ammo and you will likely have a lot better luck.  
     
  4. huckle

    huckle New Member

    270
    Jan 15, 2010
    We've got less than 200 rds through each hand gun at this point, so we're still in break-in mode. That Herter's steel-case crap was... well... crap. By contras that PPU stuff was very smooth and a relief to shoot - had less punch too, so I was less prone to limp-wrist.

    Now for a stupid, novice question: What's the 'grain' mean? eg: 91 grain vs 94 grain, etc. Yes, I know, I'm revealing my ignorance - which I'm confident will soon be remedied. :)
     
  5. MphsTiger1981

    MphsTiger1981 New Member

    387
    Feb 4, 2010

    There are no stupid questions. The grain refers to the weight of the bullet. (If I'm not mistaken,  437.5 grains = 1 ounce.) :eek:
     
  6. TxCajun

    TxCajun Administrator Staff Member Supporter

    Sep 7, 2004
    Texas
    No problem. This is how we learn. The grain is a very tiny unit of measure for weight or mass. Among other things, it is used for measuring the weight of the actual bullet only, excluding the case and the powder.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grain_(unit)
     
  7. oldgranpa

    oldgranpa New Member

    628
    Sep 23, 2004
    numbers are fun to play with, Tiger and Cajun are both right. But since "grain" is a unit of weight it is also used for the amount of power to load ammo. It is "weight" only and not size, like length, since the same weight for different things, like lead, copper, or gun powder will have a different size. Or another way to put it.... a different volume.
    That's why 2 bullets of the same diameter and length, one lead and one copper have a different grain on the box. Like regular lead 380 JHP ammo might say 90gr but CorBon's DPX copper bullet ammo says 80gr. Hollowpoint ammo usually shows a lower grain than FMJ too, like typical JHP ammo is 90gr. Typical FMJ, made in USA, shows 95gr. So that 92 and 91gr stuff has a slightly smaller bullet.

    So how heavy is that 90gr bullet really? Do the math and it's only 5.8grams or only .2oz. A really big artillery shell that weighs 1 pound is 7000grain!! :eek:

    og
     
  8. huckle

    huckle New Member

    270
    Jan 15, 2010
    Should I be surprised that the 94 grain ammo fired a LOT better than the 91 and 92 grain? Or is that difference in 'weight' negligible compared to other factors? Seemed like that 94 grain PPU packed less punch - is there typically a number or something on ammo that'd indicate how 'hot' the ammo is? Again, sorry for the ignorant question.
     
  9. TxCajun

    TxCajun Administrator Staff Member Supporter

    Sep 7, 2004
    Texas
    The weight difference in those rounds is indeed pretty negligible.  There are other factors that affect the "power" of a particular round, mostly related to the powder charge, type and amount of powder.  All powder is not created equal and there are a variety of factors including how fast or slow the powder burns.  Even the primer can have some impact.

    Often, if not on the box, on their website, manufactures will give some insight into the relative power of a round, expressing it in terms of foot pounds of energy from a standardized length test barrel.  That measurement is derived from a formula that takes into account the weight and speed of the bullet from a test barrel.  

    In some rounds/calibers, from some makers, there are designations such as +P (increased pressure) and +P+ (more increased pressure) that can give clues to how "hot" a round is.  These +P and +P+ designations come from the Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufactures Institute (SAAMI) where they have developed standards for ammunition.  A non +P round would be considered a standard load for that caliber, with some variation allowed.  Generally speaking, a +P 9mm round would be hotter than a standard load and a +P+ should be hotter still, at or near the maximum pressure for that caliber.  

    Some calibers are already considered high pressure rounds and thus have no +P designations available, so all offerings would technically be standard loads; again there is some variance.  380 and 40 cal are two such examples.  There is no real +P 380 ammo.  You will occasionally see ammunition in 380 marked as +P but it is simply a marketing ploy by a maker that does not belong to SAAMI and it really has no verifiable and measurable +P designation.  It may be loaded at or near the maximum standard pressure, nothing more.  It is essentially a marketing gimmick and quite frankly, a lie and possibly an insult to the customer's intelligence.  Even if they are not SAAMI members, no commercial manufacture is going to load a round beyond the SAAMI industry specs for that particular caliber.  That would be an open invitation to successful litigation if a gun blows up resulting in an injury, etc.