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Range Incident. What happened?

4K views 26 replies 12 participants last post by  Steve912 
#1 ·
I'm breaking in my new Ruger LCP 2. I previously ran about 50 rounds thru it and fired another 26 rounds of ball ammo this afternoon. I decided to switch to re-manufactured JHP rounds that I've used in the past in all my guns. On firing the third round in the first magazine I felt a stinging sensation in my right hand. I noticed that the mag had started to slip out of the gun and the slide was all the way to the rear and jammed. I next noticed that the assembly pin was missing; I found it on the floor. I removed the mag and the remaining rounds were loose because the follower was half way down the mag, cocked and stuck. I finally manhandled the slide off the frame and the barrel was stuck in the slide. The Range gunsmith got the barrel out of the slide by tapping it with a mallet. The barrel was free of obstructions and there was a spent round in the chamber with a rupture in its' side near the base (click on pics to enlarge). The casing will easily slip into the chamber only if the rupture is lined up directly over the chamber feed ramp. Width of rupture is also approximately the same as the width of the feed ramp.

Since the barrel was found fully seated in the slide and the ruptured round in the chamber, I can only assume that with the gun in battery, when the firing pin struck the primer, the casing failed before the bullet left its' seat/crimp. Any other theories?

The pressure wave from the rupture could have jammed the slide back and forced the mag follower down and cocked it. As for the assembly pin exiting the gun??? The pressure wave? Or is the pin the chicken or the egg?

I reassembled the gun and all functions work OK manually. I don't want to shoot it until I've cleaned it and done a good inspection.

All thought and comments are welcome.

PS. No physical damage to the shooter.

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#2 ·
The obvious suspect is a overcharged round. It's not a rare occurrence in blow back guns to have the case rupture if it's a hot load. I would have Ruger or a COMPETENT smith check her out before using it again and use only mild factory fresh or your own reloads.
 
#3 ·
My bet it similar to an over-charged round but not. I'm guessing bullet setback caused over-pressure.

Did the smith clear the gun for return to use?

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
 
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#4 ·
First off, glad you weren't hurt! That is the main thing.

I don't understand when you say the round was in the chamber. Certainly not fully in the chamber, because there would be no way for that jagged case metal to be sticking out to the side like in your picture - the chamber would have constrained it.

My guess is that the missing assembly pin was the CAUSE of the failure, not the result of it. If that pin was missing when the cartridge fired, then there would have been nothing holding the gun together to assure it was fully in battery at ignition time, and nothing to hold it together to assure the slide didn't move rearward before enough pressure had been bled off to be safe.

But you really can't say it was the assembly pins fault with any certainty. True, if it was missing at ignition time, I would expect to see something like your experience. But if it was solidly in place at ignition time, then as you said, it could have been dislodged during the failure. Hard to say. I would check that assembly pin and see if it possibly comes out "too easily" when you're just playing with it. And also, I'd check if it is possible, through human error or poor design, to accidentally get that pin inserted and apparently functional, but not FULLY inserted. If it's possible to get it in there, but maybe 1/16" shy of fully inserted, there could be an issue there.

Again, glad you weren't hurt.
 
#5 ·
Dave, the chamber is only partially supported (enclosed). Plenty of room for this blowout.

I agree with your opinion...this missing pin probably caused the blowout. Just my experienced opinion of coarse.
 
#6 ·
Oh, wow. I've never handled a Ruger LCP and didn't know the chamber was not fully supported (I assume this would be the same on the Keltec P3AT as well??) In my ignorance, I'd call that "A disaster waiting to happen". But what do I know? I'm not a firearm designer. Maybe it's perfectly OK to have a cartridge half-unsupported by the chamber. Live and learn. Thanks for increasing my knowledge about this.
 
#7 ·
Yep, very same thing in a P3AT or P32 or PF9 or P11....lol...or any 1911...I can go on all day. Most pistols do not have fully supported or enclosed chambers. Some are much more so than others. Glocks seem to be almost completely supported, at least my Glock 19 is.



Sometimes it's hard to tell if a chamber is supported or not...as this picture shows.
 
#8 ·
Well, now you went and ruined it for me. You mentioned PF9, so I went and checked mine. Sure enough, there is a little crescent of the case that is unsupported, directly over the feed ramp. Bummer. I grabbed the closest 9mm sitting next to me (that's sad to have so many "sitting next to us", but probably many KTOGers are like this!) It happened to by my HK P30S, and that one DOES have a fully supported chamber. It's even support around the entire circumference of the chamber mouth.

Well, I guess I should have checked my own gun before spouting my mouth off about "A disaster waiting to happen". Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. Given my choice, I would prefer full chamber support. I just didn't realize some of my guns, at least the PF9, doesn't have that. Oops. I feel stupid now.
 
#9 ·
For various reasons I don't/won't use remanufactured ammo in my pocket pistols (but hey)personal preference based on issues just like yours!
I picked up an LCP2 at the beginning of the year & I love it, it's VERY accurate & issue free (over 1,000 rounds blazer brass) "Until" I bought 300 rounds of 95g Lawman, it'll stove pipe almost once every 6 round mag! I'm selling the leftover 250 rounds & sticking with blazer brass.
I know my post isn't much help but my experience with the smaller firearms is they just seem a little more finicky....
Hey- Good thing you didn't take a hit & stay safe my friend.
 
#10 · (Edited)

Thank goodness you're ok. As said, that's the important part.
I must say I am alarmed!
I had no idea that they did that with the little guns.
Learned something new
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That looks like over 1/8" of unsupported case:eek:.
The LCP is now off the table for a proposed CCW for SO.
The G27 looks to be ok to me:

I think it was an over-pressure case.
Toakey45036 said:
"decided to switch to re-manufactured JHP rounds"
 
#13 ·
I had no idea that they did that with the little guns.
Designers do that with tons of guns in lots of "straight walled" pistol calibers. Glocks, 1911's, Remingtons, Colts, Rugers. It's very common.

What doesn't surprise me is that he's uninjured. Bear with me on this. I'm glad that he's uninjured, I really am, and I don't deny that a mini-grenade went off in his fist.

Case ruptures happen. Not a lot, but it's one of the more common "catastrophic" failures of ammunition today. Had one happen to me not too long ago. But most of the time when a case rupture happens, there are relatively minor injuries, if any at all. Usually it's associated with "shrapnel" of case brass and burning gasses/powder being ejected into the face or hand. Modern handgun designers have deliberately designed to direct case ruptures down the magazine well, which has lots of volume (and a spring) to soak up a lot of energy and, when the magazine fails, more-or-less "safely" vents the remaining energy out the bottom of the pistol butt which is away from the hand and away from the body (and particularly from the face).

Look around on the 'net for instances of case rupture. Usually the worst you'll see if some minor cutting and bruising to the hand. Yes, there are some instances of fingers getting blown off. But that's fairly rare.

So, while I'm very glad that he wasn't injured, I'm also both pleased and impressed with the engineering and design process which helped lead to this outcome.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
 
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#15 ·
Now-a-days I wouldn't give out info like that without talking to a Lawyer. Suffice to say that the re-manufacturer sells at most gun shows in SW Ohio for sure. Probably most of Ohio, Michigan and other states. I've bought and shot a couple thousand rounds from them without any problems.
 
#20 ·
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#21 ·
First thing I did when I picked up my new Walther PPQ from my FFL today was to look at the chamber and see if the cartridge is fully supported. I had already bought the gun, just waiting on delivery, when I started reading this thread so I hadn't done my research on that up front.

To my relief, the Walther PPQ, at least the 9mm version I just bought, has a fully supported chamber. As does my HK P30.

But several other handguns we own do not. I inspected a few to look for obvious lack of support (I did not drop cartridges into each, I could usually tell by simple visual inspection). The Springfield XD's, the .45's, do not appear to have fully supported chambers. The .40 might - it's hard to tell, I'll need to drop a cartridge in to fully check. The XD 9mm I don't know - the wife has that with her at the moment. Our Glock 17 (Gen 1) does not have full support. Nor does my 1911. Or my PF9. I haven't checked the rest. But initially at least, it seems that it is more common than not to have a partially unsupported chamber.
 
#24 ·
Fortunately, .45 ACP isn't a high-pressure cartridge. Not that it's unimportant to have a fully supported chamber, but at least it's less of an issue with that particular caliber. With others like .40 S&W, .357 Sig, and so on, where they run a MUCH higher pressure level, it's a lot more critical.
 
#22 ·
Look at how thick a primer cup is. Now remember that the base of the case is thicker than the primer cup. Just because the case is exposed at the feed ramp does not mean that the thin wall of the case is not supported. there is an area of solid brass at the bottom of the case. It is a problem when there is too much of the case exposed at the feed ramp. A little case showing in front of the grove in the case may not be trouble. It IS trouble when a lot of case is exposed. JMHO :(:(:(

Steve
 
#23 ·
It IS trouble when a lot of case is exposed.
It also could be a problem when the case has been reloaded multiple times, and the brass has thinned, weakened, or started to crack. Also a problem when those reloads have over pressure powder charges in them. Or the bullets are set back too far, etc.

Spotting a cracked case when reloading if usually easy. Throw it out. Spotting a thinned case, not so much. But since you rarely have to (if ever) trim straight wall pistol cartridge brass, thinning is not such a big issue for handguns. Pistol brass usually cracks before it thins. Necked rifle cartridges are a whole different matter though.
 
#25 ·
Incident followup: I cleaned the gun and examined it with a magnifying lens. Could not detect any cracks or deformation. I found some sharp edges that I smoothed with a stone. Live rounds easily slipped into the chamber. Took it to the range yesterday and it ran like a charm using factory ammo.

For those of you who thought it might be an "out-of-battery" incident, I said in my original write-up that "the barrell was stuck in the slide". I should have added that the barrell was fully seated and stuck in the slide. I think if it was OOB when the blowout occurred the barrel would not have been found fully seated.

Like most of you, I think the cause was the re-manufactured bullet. Weak or defective case? Too much powder?

Bottom line is I like the Ruger LCP2 and will continue to use it for CC.

Thanks to all for your thoughts and comments. I learned a lot following this thread.
 
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#26 ·
I'm still putting my money on bullet setback. The LCP I was a direct ripoff of the P3AT. The P3AT was known for being hard on bullets, forcing setback during recoil and smashing smilies. In your case, if the reman ammo did not have a strong enough crimp then it would be susceptible to bullet setback. A weak crimp in reman ammo can happen for several different reasons including a manufacturing machine issue not applying a strong crimp or weakened or thin brass not "taking" the crimp. Other things could cause it to but the bottom line is that these little pocket 380's have a record of being vulnerable to creating bullet setback.

I don't think the LCP II has been out long enough for it to develop a track record on setback one way or another.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
 
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