[Alterum]

Hi everyone, I'm new here (and I've just come of age to begin carrying guns in the U.S.!). I picked up a P-3AT about a week ago and am really very happy with it. I usually dry-fire handguns after cleaning them so that they don't remain cocked -- especially when I'm not going to be using the gun for months. I was doing this with the P-3AT but read that it should not be dry-fired. So, I'm just wondering if there's any problem with leaving the gun cocked for extended periods of time? Thanks!

 

[W2]

Someone more knowledgeable than me will be along to answer that througly, but I believe a DAO is not cocked till the trigger is pulled. Therefore the name Double Action Only, first action to cock, then fire. I am sure I will be corrected if I am wrong.
Welcome to the forum.

L.W.

 

[Alterum]

Oh, I think you're right!  What happens when you pull the slide back, i.e., so that you can pull the trigger?  I'm wondering if keeping it in that state for an extended period of time is harmful in any way.

Edit: And thanks!

 

[flonder22]

Welcome to The Group. Do not dry fire your p-3. Do leave it cocked at all times, no harm will ever come from this. Do yourself and your new pistol a favor and go way back into the forum threads and start reading all about the P-3 and last, but not least, do enjoy your new gun. Let everyone know how she shoots and if you have any problems. All the answers to your questions are just a click away.

 

[PshootR]

I agree with W2 that keeping P3-AT in the semi-cocked mode is not harmful. I keep mine that way. You could of course get a snap cap and put that in the chamber and then dry fire it. Or just dry fire it with the chamber empty after every cleaning session. Occasional dry firing won't hurt a Kel-Tec. Most manufacturers place a perfunctory warning about dry firing in their manuals. BTW, every time you cycle the slide about 1/4" the hammer is returned to the partially cocked, pre-cocked or semi-cocked position (take your pick). Hope the 'net nanny doesn't fudge with the last sentence.

 

[Syndil]

Someone more knowledgeable than me will be along to answer that througly, but I believe a DAO is not cocked till the trigger is pulled.

Technically you are correct, and if the P3-AT were a true DAO that would be the case. Might want to read this thread:

http://www.ktog.org/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=2502;action=display;num=1183155804

Basically, the P3-AT and most semi-autos that are described as DAO are actually what I would call partial DAO. The hammer of the P3-AT is partially cocked by racking the slide, then pulling the trigger cocks it back even further until it is released. If you pull the trigger and the slide doesn't go back--dry firing, for instance--pulling the trigger a second time will do nothing at all. The hammer will not move from the fully forward position.

 

[GMax]

A few months back my previously perfect P3-AT which is carried 24/7 had a hammer spring break after 1 round fired at the range. I have since received a new hammer spring assembly from KT and replaced it and it has worked perfectly since then.
I have a nagging worry though that the spring being under constant pressure (half cocked ?) may be fatiguing it.
Anyone else have this concern?

 

[adamsesq]

A few months back my previously perfect P3-AT which is carried 24/7 had a hammer spring break after 1 round fired at the range. I have since received a new hammer spring assembly from KT and replaced it and it has worked perfectly since then.
I have a nagging worry though that the spring being under constant pressure (half cocked ?) may be fatiguing it.
Anyone else have this concern?

GMax - it is a legitimate question even supported by many "Wives Tales" which are founded on a lack of knowledge of how springs work.  Springs do not wear out, get tired, weaken or anything else from sitting at any point within their designed travel.  As long as the spring is not overstretched, it will practically have the same life under tension as sitting unhooked. Springs wear out from repeated compression and release.  So, just like your magazines can remain fully loaded without hurting the springs, so can your KT remain loaded/cocked and ready to rock.

-Scott

 

[GMax]

Scott-
It appears that the spring broke at the point where the loop was put into it. My guess is that area could be cold stressed to some degree during that process and prone to possible failure. There obviously was some kind of defect as the gun was about 1 year old with around 1,500 rounds through it. I don't think the spring failed, I think the loop failed.
Any metallurgists in the house?

 

[Guest]

Alterum... Glad to have you here.

I would consider the fluff and buff, good clean and lube.

golden loki fluff and buff

http://www.goldenloki.com/guns/keltec/prep.htm

http://www.goldenloki.com/guns/keltec/prep2.htm


new gun prep
http://1bad69.com/keltec/newgunprep.htm

dissasembly
http://www.1bad69.com/keltec/disassembly.htm

lubrication hints/tips
http://www.ktog.org/tecwerks1.htm#Lubrication

Regarding the cocked/uncockerd etc...

I clean and lube at least 1 x week. After lube, I run a mag or two full of snap caps to give me some level of certainty that I have put it all back in proper order.

After the last snap cap cycle, I pop in a full mag and load one in the pipe. Drop that mag and top off, then load mag again.

I am not a metals expert , but I do have an Eng. degree and have some understanding of stress and metals and how they fail.

I agree with Scott. The spings used in handguns are almost never pushed to limits under normal work loads, however they do fail from time to time.

Failure at a bend (the loop) would seem to be the place it would fail it it was going to. Much like a house slabe will always crack at the inside corner of the 90 deg. offset.

It is the OVER stretching of the hammer spring during the removal and re-install on the frame that I am betting causes the spring to fail. If KT went to a stronget spring, the trigger pull would be even more extreme than it is now.

 

[GMax]

The hammer assembly of my P3-AT had never been removed prior to this failure. I'm leaning towards a manufacturing defect of the loop. Just wondering if others have experienced this.

 

[Guest]

The hammer assembly of my P3-AT had never been removed prior to this failure. I'm leaning towards a manufacturing defect of the loop. Just wondering if others have experienced this.

Was the frame (part with serial number) ever removed form the grip?

 

[Bobo]

I have been carrying my P-3AT "ready-to-shoot" (semi-cocked) 24/7 for almost two years now. I also have over 1700 rounds through it. It still has the original hammer spring.

My last trip to range was yesterday and it still functions perfectly.

My personal opinion...
DON'T WORRY ABOUT IT! ;D

 

[rcmodel]

Actually, the hammer is not even nearly "half-cocked" when at rest on the hammer-block safety.
There is hardly any tension on the spring at all compared to when it is brought to full cock by the trigger linkage, and again by the slide every time it is fired.

Look in the open slot at the rear of the slide and you can see the hammer at rest on the hammer block.
Now, making doubly sure the gun is un-loaded, slowly pull the trigger.  

You can see the hammer being brought back to full-cock and released. Without that full range of hammer movement, there is not enough energy available to fire a round, even if the hammer-block safety did somehow fail. (although it is very hard to imagine it failing)

Now that the hammer has been released, it now rests inside the slide, against the firing pin recess in the slide.
Slowly open the slide, and you can see it press the hammer back all they way to where it would be at full-cock if it could stay there. (But it can't, because there is no internal sear to hold it there.)

Now slowly ease the slide forward and you can see the hammer follow the slide until it is once again un-cocked and resting against the hammer-block safety.

Only by pulling the trigger is it possible for the hammer to come to full cock and be released with enough energy to fire a round in the chamber.
(Or put any stress the spring at all!)

rcmodel

 

[Alterum]

Thanks so much, gents! I already know more than I ever thought I'd need to know about my new P-3AT

 

[W2]

Technically you are correct, and if the P3-AT were a true DAO that would be the case. Might want to read this thread:

http://www.ktog.org/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=2502;action=display;num=1183155804

Basically, the P3-AT and most semi-autos that are described as DAO are actually what I would call partial DAO. The hammer of the P3-AT is partially cocked by racking the slide, then pulling the trigger cocks it back even further until it is released. If you pull the trigger and the slide doesn't go back--dry firing, for instance--pulling the trigger a second time will do nothing at all. The hammer will not move from the fully forward position.

Thanks Syndil for the clarifaction. I do remember reading it, but did not recall all the details. In light of this thread and the other one, I did have one light strike, kept the bullet and second time thru it fired. What would be the proper clear procedure, rack the slide and eject the bullet or can u partially rack it to semi-cock the hammer? After typing that, I guess that trying to partially cock it would be to hard to do with adrenaline flowing, so a full rack would be in order, eh?

 

[Sangueffusor]

Racking it only far enough to "re-cock" the hammer takes some dexterity. And even when you're paying attention, you might use too much force and pop the round out of the chamber completely. It has happened to me.

 

[Syndil]

The only time I have dry-fired my pistol was when I had the slide removed so I really can't answer that question, although I too would like to know the answer if someone wants to be the guinea pig.

However if it were to happen to me in a SHTF situation I would agree that a full rack of the slide would be the best course of action to take.

 

[rcmodel]

The old Tap-Rack-Bang drill is widely accepted as the best course of action if you have a malfunction of any kind.

TAP = the magazine base to make sure it is still there, and seated all the way.

RACK = the slide to eject the round or clear the jam.

BANG = pull the trigger again.

All of this is way faster then it sounds, and way faster then trying to get a misfire to fire by snapping on it more then once.

If it didn't go off the first time, it's time to try another one!

rcmodel

 

[RAT76]

If it didn't go off the first time, it's time to try another one!

rcmodel

This needs bigger letters.


If it didn't go off the first time, it's time to try another one!

What he said! Ammo is cheap. Time is not!