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Discussion Starter #1
OK, I admit it, I'm in lust with the Tactical KSG at the LGS. It was lust at first sight months ago. I'm considering purchasing it and waiting for it to be released from prison while ATF gives the go ahead for us to consummate our relationship.

From what I can see the Compact is identical to the Tactical except for the non NFA barrel length.

But discussing the firearms themselves isn't why I'm posting.

I read posts here that tell me that the minishells work fine in the standard KSG. I hope that translates to the Tactical and that IS why I'm posting.

From those who know the KSG, and also those who have used the models I mentioned, is there any reason to think they wouldn't handle the 1 3/4" minishells? I'm not looking for it to handle the birdshot version, but the slugs and buckshot. If it handles birdshot OK, but I don't see it as being for wingshooting.

Further, is there any reason that would prevent you from considering the KSG for home defense or for the coming civil war and for long term use? I'm looking to upgrade to a bullpup shotgun of some sort, and it doesn't get much more compact that the Tactical in a shoulder fired shotgun. I figure with a fast optical sight and a laser/light combo mounted on a 45° offset mount it should make for a handy slung shotgun.

TIA

Since the Tactical and Compact versions appear identical except for more barrel on the compact how the heck does Keltec justify the much higher pricetag on the Tactical? Charge what the traffic will bear? Never give a sucker an even break? The higher price tag makes no sense to me. Just a rhetorical question, but if someone wants to answer that it's welcome for discussion.
 

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The Kel-Tec shotguns "usually" work with the mini shells, BUT not always, and not each and every time even in guns that seem to "like" them.

All you can do is shoot enough of them to verify reliability to YOUR satisfaction.
Your satisfaction depends on how much ammo you're willing to buy before trusting it and on how much shooting you think is enough to trust the gun.
That the mini shells work in someone else's Kel-Tec means NOTHING.
What counts is whether they work reliably in YOUR specific gun.
Guns are individuals and some guns just don't "like" some ammo.
Only shooting the gun and ammo can verify reliability.

Personally, when I bought my new KS7 earlier this year, the only ammo I could find were two boxes of mini shells, one birdshot and one buckshot.
As a purely personal decision, I just don't trust the mini shells and as soon as I can find any for sale I'm going to buy some reduced recoil 2 3/4 buckshot ammo.
Since all I have are the mini shells, the KS7 is not in use as a defense gun at this time.

If I was going to use mini shells I'd be buying the new Federal buckshot loads. I just feel that the Federal would be better quality and more likely to function.
Plus, the Federal's contain all #4 buckshot which fits my probable defense situation better.

As for the pricing of the Tactile versus the Compact....
The Tactical is a Class 3 restricted weapon.
It costs Kel-Tec more money to market it because they have to comply with all the regulations and complications.

ANY restricted firearm will always cost more even if it's no different than a few inches of barrel length and that's caused by the licensing and complying with all the restrictions, and in further having to work through a limited number of distributors who are licensed to sell Class 3 weapons.
All the restrictions cost more money then a standard non-restricted standard firearm so the price is higher.

Part of the unseen costs of making a Class 3 firearm is the time needed for employees to deal with the BATF, inspections, and massive paperwork.
People don't work free and trusted employees who can deal with the complicated processes don't work for minimum wages.
It's the complicated process and paperwork that causes the price to be higher, even though the gun actually costs little more to actually build.

In other words, the extra cost is not for the actual gun, it's for the process.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Yesterday I stopped by the LGS to fondle the KSG Tactical again and compare it to a full size KSG. I actually like the feel of the full size KSG better. I'm not fond of vertical grips and that's the difference. On Sunday if they had been open I would have plunked down my $ for the Tactical, but yesterday I decided to do as I had been doing and wait for KS7s to arrive for another comparison. They've had the Tactical in stock now for a few months and I doubt they'll sell it in another few weeks. But if they do, well then it wasn't to be, or I'll have them order another if I really must have one. Or order a Compact and keep my SBS shotgun option open.
 

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Having owned both the KSG and currently a KS7, I'm of the opinion that the KS7 is the superior gun.

About all the KSG has to recommend it is the higher magazine capacity, and in an actual home defense gun that advantage is questionable due to the Real World chance of needing more then 7 rounds.

The down sides of the KSG are the feed system complexity, weight, and bulk of the gun, plus the greater difficulty of accessing the magazines for routine maintenance.
The KSG also has a rougher operation even after a "fluff and buff" of key parts.

The KS7 is a much smoother operating gun right out of the box, and after minimal work is one of the smoothest shotguns I've ever handled.

The far less complex magazine system is also far less prone to problems and avoids the "Which magazine am I feeding from now" confusion.

In short I think the Kel-Tec engineers learned a lot from the KSG and with the KS7 they got it right.
I sort of wonder if somewhere at Kel-Tec there are engineers working on a semi-auto version.
 

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The Tactical is a Class 3 restricted weapon.
It costs Kel-Tec more money to market it because they have to comply with all the regulations and complications.....Part of the unseen costs of making a Class 3 firearm is the time needed for employees to deal with the BATF, inspections, and massive paperwork
As you say Class 3 restricted, and that restriction is to SOT Class 3 FFLs. There is no massive paperwork involved. Barely any more than usual. The SOT Class 1 (or is it Class 2?) for manufacturers is a one time fee, or SOT, and after that they just log and track everything, making sure to only distribute to SOT Class 3 FFLs. Just ask Mark Serbu and his lovely assistant Bunny... At any rate, KT will not sell directly to users, although they could IF in their own home state of Florida (but they wont), therefore, there is a transfer fee to the SOT Class 3 FFL. But... its hardly a boondongle of regulation. Not much to speak of at all.

And to be specific, there is no such thing as a Class 3 firearm. The firearm is either Title I or Title II. NFA items are all Title II firearms. Class 3 only refers to the SOT (Special Occupational Tax) Class, which is specific to and different for FFLs, Manufacturers and Importers. That tax goes above and beyond the normal fees for FFL, Manufacturer or Importer. I can't recall for Class 1 and Class 2, but FFL is $500 annually. I "think" Class 1 and Class 2 are only $1500 annually. Don't crucify me if different.

The reason the Tactical is priced higher is supply and demand or put another way - its priced at what KT thought the market would support (in terms of dollars). Simple economics.
 

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One common misconception is that manufacturers are making all, or most products, all of the time. That is not the case for almost every manufactured item (there are exceptions...). In the gun world, there is manufacturing capability for only "so much" at any given moment. There are quite a few "internet stories" about sending a firearm back for repair, even under warranty, and having to wait "forever" to get it back. Is it because the manufacturer is just a slow poke? Maybe, but not likely. Is it due to the huge backlog of incoming repairs? Also not likely. Is it because they just don't have the parts? That, is the most likely reason for delays. They don't make too many "extra" parts, except those which are commonly (pick all that apply) broken or worn from use, broken or fubar'd from a bubba-job, lost during disassembly, or those which a customer wants to have a spare of. If you need something uncommon, or something not available for any reason, you're going to have to wait for the next scheduled production.

Back in 1979, I bought a Ruger Super Blackhawk. Great gun, loved it, but... after about 100 rounds, a part called the "recoil plate" cracked in half. It was still in the frame, but it allowed primers to back out, and would jam the cylinder after the first shot. Sent back to Ruger.... and the wait began. They had zero on hand. Next run, four months. In four months, I got my Super Blackhawk back, with a finish that was to die for too, I might add.

Ok s'whats this all mean for any low production firearm, especially a Title II (NFA) firearms? It means they'll do up a short run, then have to stock those firearms until they sell. Production runs of standard items are scheduled according to jobber orders. That's why they're called jobbers... they order up an entire production "job" from the factory. Sometimes jobbers will work together and get something made. Sometimes jobbers will order up runs of "specialty" firearms (Talo as one of those jobbers, for instance). Ok, so with an NFA item... frankly I don't see an NFA "jobber" taking on a big run for such a specialty item. That means there's going to be some stocking done at KT - which they are loathe to do. Factories don't make things just to stock them. Bad business. Factories MAKE things. Distribution, through jobbers and sub-distributors, then dealers, stock things. When a factory has to stock things, then they look at something that might be termed "the cost of money". They have dollars tied up in production, they have dollars sitting on their shelves with XX/YY as estimated sell-out date. If that money, those resources, were used in another way, what would the factory get (in terms of revenue)? So, there's money sitting on the shelves, and to keep it sitting there has a cost in relative terms. If George K invested, say, $50,000 of production in an item, but he had to sit on it for three years... wait... what _else_ could he do with that dough and what would be the return in three years? (all hypothetical dollars and time for example sake) That's the cost of money. That cost is factored in (and one of few true cost factors) when market price is considered.

So, supply, demand, what the market will bear in terms of pricing for a specialty item, and the cost of money... its all there as determining factors when pricing is set. And... its not unusual for pricing to change along the life of a product. Take a look at CDNN, who mostly sells close-outs they buy up from jobbers (and some direct from the manufacturers or importers too I'd imagine).

Pricing is more determined by market conditions than cost of manufacturing. The market almost universally sets the price of any item made - from guns to gasoline, from electricity to elastic bands.
 
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I’m curious why you need a barrel only a few inches shorter? Does it justify all that extra cash? Cool factor? Also aren’t the dual magazine tubes shorter? Hold less rounds? Just wondering.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
I’m curious why you need a barrel only a few inches shorter? Does it justify all that extra cash? Cool factor? Also aren’t the dual magazine tubes shorter? Hold less rounds? Just wondering.
Precisely! My questions exactly. I'm wondering what it'll do for me that the KS7 won't for the extra $. I'm almost positive that I don't want the standard KSG and I ABSOLUTELY know(!) that I don't want the supersized one. That pretty much leaves the Tactical or the Compact as competition for the KS7. I'm writing nothing off other than what I already stated at this point. If the Tactical had a standard horizontal foregrip it might be a done deal by now. I'm not a fan of vertical foregrips. If they had a skeletal foregrip that allowed me to add what I wanted it might also be a done deal despite the added complexity of the KSG.

I'm in no hurry, I don't have much use for a shotgun, yet another consideration for the added expense of the Tactical. I'll get it sorted out in time. I know the present riot/battle shotgun I have, while truly excellent, is just too long and muzzle heavy for me to like anymore.
 
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Precisely! My questions exactly. I'm wondering what it'll do for me that the KS7 won't for the extra $. I'm almost positive that I don't want the standard KSG and I ABSOLUTELY know(!) that I don't want the supersized one. That pretty much leaves the Tactical or the Compact as competition for the KS7. I'm writing nothing off other than what I already stated at this point. If the Tactical had a standard horizontal foregrip it might be a done deal by now. I'm not a fan of vertical foregrips. If they had a skeletal foregrip that allowed me to add what I wanted it might also be a done deal despite the added complexity of the KSG.

I'm in no hurry, I don't have much use for a shotgun, yet another consideration for the added expense of the Tactical. I'll get it sorted out in time. I know the present riot/battle shotgun I have, while truly excellent, is just too long and muzzle heavy for me to like anymore.
I think the KS7 is the perfect one for me. It ticks all the boxes. Quick, simple. Easy. I do like vertical foregrips and I hope someone comes up with a sturdy solution for the KS7. High Tech Custom Concepts was purportedly working on one. But if not it’s all good.
 

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I've looked at the KS7 forearm and I think a vertical grip could be installed.

To do so, several holes, probably at least 4, would need to be cut in the bottom of the forearm between the two halves.

A wide bar-like contoured support would be installed inside to reinforce the forearm and prevent spreading the two halves.
If the support is wide enough and curved to fit the inside of the forearm bolts could be installed through the sides of the forearm, which would be strong enough for anything short of simply breaking the entire forearm assembly.

A rail section could then be bolted through the forearm holes into the inner support bar.
A VFG or any other accessory could then be mounted.
Done correctly and using a wide, fitted inner support and I think it would be as strong as the KSG plastic rail.
 
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If it can be solidly mounted, without any major modification, drilling, or cutting, and removable, with the ability to restore the gun back to stock, that would be my criteria for a vertical grip mount. I don’t like the idea of screws in the seam of the two halves. I would say 4 screws, 1 on each side of the seam on each end of the rail. With a retaining plate inside the handle that the screws bolt into. Or, just a billet aluminum replacement 2-piece pump handle with a rail mounted on the bottom. Quite a feat I think.
 

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I will tell you all... that if I took my Serbu Super Shorty, and placed a shoulder stock next to it (not mounted of course), its the same length as a KSG standard bullpup. That pretty much takes the SBR factor off my radar, although the Serbu Super Shorty is great for when small needs to be smaller than small.
 

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4.8 inches shorter than a standard KSG, for $200 Tax Stamp. That's $41.67 an inch. I have spent a lot more on other things to make them shorter. Go For it.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
4.8 inches shorter than a standard KSG, for $200 Tax Stamp. That's $41.67 an inch. I have spent a lot more on other things to make them shorter. Go For it.
I like the way to think, but it's actually $600 more. It's the tax stamp, plus the additional cost, and a 6 month or longer wait to get it out of ATF jail. I'm not concerned about getting my name on the registry again, but I resolved the issue today. (Continued in KS7 section below)
 
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