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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Here is a question. When practicing at the range, I use the two handed grip that is often mentioned by Two Pistol Packer. I have eliminated virtually any limp wristing that could cause a malfunction. My question is: How is this type of practice beneficial for self defense training? It seems useless to me. The P-3AT is not a target shooting gun, but a self defense gun. It is a pull out of concealment and shoot with one hand gun. The more I think about it, the more I have to wonder how effective the gun would be in a gunfight using one hand and firing several shots. I wonder how often any gun shot in defense, is fired using a two hand grip? Probably, not too often. Would anybody really have time to setup with the perfect grip and stance like we do at the range when confronted by the BG?
From now on, I will be practicing shooting one handed (both strong and weak sides) with both my P-3AT and Beretta PX4.
 

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Re: Practicing with a Self Defense Gun at the Rang

Packer's excellent "anti-limpwristing" instructions cover one handed shooting as well. The main thing to remember with any of these light guns is to let your arm move at the elbow not at the wrist.

It's that wrist flex that bleeds energy off the gun and therefore hampers the recoil cycle.

I've had no problems shooting any of my KTs one handed. P3AT, P11/40. Just hang on tight and "let er rip".
 

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Re: Practicing with a Self Defense Gun at the Rang

It's obviously not a bad idea to practice one and two handed in odd stances. You never know what position you will have to fire from.

But its also a good idea to practice getting into a decent two handed grip as soon as possible. Hopefully I will never have to find out, but I think getting to the two handed grip is more practical than you might think. My weak hand goes around my strong hand just as soon as my weapon is clear from its holster no matter where that holster might be (smartcarry, pocket, boot, iwb (well, iwb and sob take a bit more movement before you can get your two hands together...) You can have a strong push/pull grip even at the side of your waist if need be.

-Scott
 

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Re: Practicing with a Self Defense Gun at the Rang

Vette said:
Would anybody really have time to setup with the perfect grip and stance like we do at the range when confronted by the BG?
Probably not if you were using one hand to fight him off you at the time, or deflect a knife or club.

I agree, a two-handed grip is very useful if you have time to use it.

But you would be way better off practicing with your right hand, and then with your left hand.
Practice until you can shoot with either hand.

During a confrontation, you may not always have two hands available.
Or two hands that still work.


rcmodel
 

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Re: Practicing with a Self Defense Gun at the Rang

my feeling is that if any of us "amateours"(?) gets into a firefight instinct will take over....so we can practice as much as we can and try to be prepared as much as possible but only seasoned firefight veterans will have the upper hand
 

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Re: Practicing with a Self Defense Gun at the Rang

  +1 on BOTH of the previous posts. Only serious training will keep you from limp-wristing in the heat of battle.

LIMP WRISTING TIPS--TWO HAND:

  Practice both from a draw. It's really more about practicing to survive than hitting targets dead center.

1. Place strong hand on grip with finger alongside trigger guard.  
2. Cup weak hand as if you were going to drink water from it.  
3. Rotate weak hand 45 degrees toward your body.  
4. Place palm against front of strong hand fingers, with thumbs nearly parallel.  
5. Line up on target and push forward with strong hand while pulling back with weak hand.  
  This will lock your wrist and prevent limp wristing.

 SINGLE HAND GRIP:  
 
1. Line up on target.  
2. strain hand forward as if you were trying to get the gun closer to the target.

SHOOTING FROM THE HIP:

  To shoot from close in with one hand, do the same straining forward, but lock your elbow so the hand can't actually GET forward. This works from 90 degrees or even from the hip--You should practice both until they are automatic.

Packer.

Edited to add third section to tips.

Two BUFFs
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Re: Practicing with a Self Defense Gun at the Rang

Two Pistol Packer said:
   
 SINGLE HAND GRIP:  
 
1. Line up on target.  
2. strain hand forward as if you were trying to get the gun closer to the target.  

Packer.

Two BUFFs
Scenario - BG is 10ft away, coming at you with a knife. From everything I read, the BG is usually very close to their intended victim when they make their move.

1. Line up on target. No time for that, shoot as soon as the gun is facing the BG

2. strain hand forward as if you were trying to get the gun closer to the target. Doesn't sound like a good idea to me. I would keep the gun as close to me as possible with a close confrontation. I don't want to take a chance of having it deflected or taken away from me.
 

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Re: Practicing with a Self Defense Gun at the Rang

I read that statistics show that 50% of self defense situations occur within 3ft and 80% within 21 ft.Must be a good reason that law enforcement agencies teach the 2 handed grip. At the same time one would be best served to be able use either hand alone.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Re: Practicing with a Self Defense Gun at the Rang

always1stnline said:
I read that statistics show that 50% of self defense situations occur within 3ft and 80% within 21 ft.
Where did you read those stats, Ripleys Believe it or Not? 50 + 80 =130
 

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Re: Practicing with a Self Defense Gun at the Rang

If the BG is 10 feet or closer and you miss either the barrel is bent in half or you have no reason to have a gun....you may not drop them but at least hit'em
 

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Re: Practicing with a Self Defense Gun at the Rang

If you have 100 shootings, and 50 of them are 3 feet or less, and 30 of them are between 3 feet and 21 feet, that still gives you 80% of the shootings occur within 21 feet, and 50% occuring within 3.
 

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Re: Practicing with a Self Defense Gun at the Rang

Vette said:
2. strain hand forward as if you were trying to get the gun closer to the target.  Doesn't sound like a good idea to me. I would keep the gun as close to me as possible with a close confrontation. I don't want to take a chance of having it deflected or taken away from me.
  Sigh! There used to be a third section to that advice. I guess it got lost somewhere and I need to add it back on:

  To shoot from close in with one hand, do the same straining forward, but lock your elbow so the hand can't actually GET forward. This works from 90 degrees or even from the hip--You should practice both.

Packer.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Re: Practicing with a Self Defense Gun at the Rang

KelTekCajun said:
Vette, 3 feet is still within 21 feet.
Good point, but I wouldn't of included 3ft twice. I would of stated 4-21ft as 30% and over 21ft as 20%. Percentages generally are less confusing when they all total up to 100%
 

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Re: Practicing with a Self Defense Gun at the Rang

The 2 handed hold as mentioned is the desired position for combat shooting and should be of primary focus. Any other type of mode is strictly for contigency, not that it shouldn't be practiced but is of an area best addressed by professional instruction.

B21-E
 

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Re: Practicing with a Self Defense Gun at the Rang

Good point with the topic. That's why could care less about the sights on the gun. I doubt when / if I ever do need it I will not have time to sight someone. I practice drawing from my pocket and firing. I do of course fire using the sights and two hands but only to see how accurate I can be. As far as the post about the 'law enforcement teaching two handed grip". LEO can draw a gun on someone form a distance, such as approaching someone in a car, to help deter someone from doing something. Us CCW carriers can usually only draw as a last resort, well here in Florida.
 

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Re: Practicing with a Self Defense Gun at the Rang

If you use a proper draw stroke, the pistol can be fired at any point within that draw stroke as soon as it clears the holster/pocket and is pointed downrange.

When I draw from a holster positioned strong side at about 4:00 the pistol travels straight up to about nipple level and is then extended forward and joined with the opposite hand. Anywhere from the time the barrel clears leather until the pistol is extended with both hands it can be fired. It is also close to your body until it is extended horizontally from the nipple level position. In other words, it's basically two 90 degree strokes, straight up and straight out....

For a small pocket pistol it should essentially be the same.

Of course, this is the ideal draw stroke with no impedance which may not be possible, but at least it's a plan and a method which is practiced.

Be real careful practicing this with a loaded firearm. it's incredibly easy to shoot your weak side arm or hand if you are not proficient. Practice, practice, practice with snap caps until you are safe and then start slow and deliberate even then.....

Vette, I think you need to get some training.....
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Hutch01 said:
Vette, I think you need to get some training.....
I think everyone should get proper training. Have you ever been in a life and death situation? I have. How do you train for the unknown? My point was that these P-3AT are prone to problems with limp wristing. In a panic/sudden possible death threathening situation, can the majority of people on this forum fire several rounds with one hand and not cause a FTE? I know that most of us can easily do it with two handed grips. How do you know that the situation will allow you to use both hands?
 

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Re: Re:practicing with a Self Defense Gun at the R

Vette said:
Have you ever been in a life and death situation? I have.
Ahem, well yes.

How do you know that the situation will allow you to use both hands?
I don't. That's why I explained the draw stroke I use. It is one handed until such time as the two hands join. The pistol can be fired anywhere within the stroke. Apparently, you missed the whole point. [sigh]
 
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