[Eric_in_Nola]

1st time poster and new P3AT owner. Love the new pistol, apx 300 rounds through it and it is doing fine.

I read a post about "hip shooting and point shooting" and thought I'd add my 2 cents in.

When I was stationed at Ft Benning attending Mortar course, I had 5 Special Forces classmates. Prior to the mortar course, they had just finished a CQB course and were eager to teach their new found skills.

This was about 10 years ago, and at that time Sf guys were mostly focused on being expert trainiers of foreign military, not as focused on the direct action stuff as they are now- different times.

Anyway, they hosted a free trainig session for any of us who wanted to attend at a local private range.

Focus was on the basics- I had previously qualified expert w/ the M9 and felt confident w/ my skills. In one afternoorn they took me from hitting the target every time to putting every round through the same ragged hole, and w/ about a 70% reduction in time from presentation to firing.

Key to this is getting the weapon on target quickly. They tought a very simple method. Regadless of grip- extend trigger finger down the frame of the weapon (ie. point the same direction as the barrel). Point finger at target, check sight picture, engage target.

According to their instruction, the human mind, w/o concious thought, is capable of directing the finger to point within 1/4 of 1 mil of the exact center of an object. (A mil is a different kind of measurement of an angle. 6400 mils in a circle, 360 degrees in a circle, mils are a much more exact way to measure angles.)

Your finger does not have to lined up with your face, you can do it from the hip also.

Now just b/c the finger points center mass does not mean that the round will strike there. Key to this method of engagement is practice, practice and practice of the basics. Frim consistant grip, and trigger pull are the two big ones.

Once you get those two down it is just a matter of mechanics. At typical engagement ranges, grip is likely the more important of the two. Focus on having your grip exactly the same very time your present the weapon. Considering that this weapon is a close in-save your rear weapon , this is how i spend my range time.

Thanks to all of the people who post here, it made my purchasing decision easy.

 

[Bobo]

Great first post!

Welcome - and thanks for the tips! ;D

 

[TxCajun]

Agreed, nice first post. Welcome Eric. 8)

P.S. Hope your neighborhood is coming along. :-/

 

[Packer]

Welcome to KTOG, Eric! Very nice post! Thanks for the tips.

Packer.

 

[Kwesi]

Eric welcome aboard and thanks for the great education!

 

[alamo]

Thanks as well. Welcome aboard.

 

[JAH]

Eric, thanks for the post. I've read other sites about point shooting and love the sound of 70% faster. In your experience, do you pull the trigger with the pointer finger or the traffic finger? ;D If with the traffic finger, you differ from the other sites but if it works, great. I haven't done much with point shooting, but pulling the trigger with the traffic finger is hard for me to get used to and hard to hold the weapon with the 2 remaining fingers.
Thanks again and welcome. I'll be looking for your answer.

 

[Guest]

Great info, thanks!

 

[fatman]

Eric_in_Nola, this was an excellent post!

I have been doing a lot of point practice and more especially quick aiming practice from eye level with laser equiped guns and I had noticed that when I kept my trigger finger along the frame parallel to the barrel longer than usual I was getting on target quicker but I didn't know how much improvement was possible. (It works even better when one also points the thumb along the barrel.)

I am still struggling to break my habit of going to the trigger too quickly for maximum benefit. I can assure you though that the possibility of a 70% improvement in speed has given me new motivation to work this out.

 

[Eric_in_Nola]

Bass player and Fatman,

Bass Player, I use the traditional trigger/ pointer finger, I have tried the other way but it is just too awkward for me. Have been shooting since I was a kid and pointer finger has "learned" smooth trigger squeeze. On My Glock 17 I can do it w/ my travel finger but it is a struggle, on my P-3at I can only get the trigger finger into the guard. Additionaly, from a tactical point of view, I want to eliminate as many steps as possible from carry to discharge. Having to think about getting which finger in place under extreme stress is one too many steps for my grey matter. IMO the P3AT points very well for the ranges it is intended for. In my hands the slim design allows me to hold the pistol very easily and point just as if I was pointing to an object w/o the pistol in my hand, very natural.

Fat man, my "break through" with going to the trigger came after about 3 strainght hours of drills, not very exciting and done at a crawl pace. The goal was to "learn what right looked and flet like," the drill was: grasp the pistol, ensure finger was aligned, draw, present, pick up good sight picture at center mass, move to trigger and discharge... then , IMO the most important part...freeze, observe where the round struck, note your grip, body position, are you in good poition to deliver a second shot on target? Be fiercely critical of everything! Repeat. As you start to get consistancy, gradualy speed up the drills. Soon you will know how every muscle group should feel when there is a good engagement and going to the trigger will be very natural and swift.

Good luck.

 

[FastEddie]

Thats some great tips. Thanks for posting so much info

 

[JAH]

Thanks Eric,
I'll give it a try. It'll be a good excuse to go to the range. ;D I'll let you know how it went.

 

[Guest]

eric, IMO I see alot of time lost in the point finger, then insert in trigger and fire. Sure hope the BG isn't just putting his finger on the trigger in the first place while I am still point away.. :

 

[Eric_in_Nola]

jocko, with the finger point method as soon the muzzle of the pistol exits the holster/pocket - whatever, you start to point the finger at the BG. Your brain will get you finger to point instinctivly at the center of the target. If the situation permits, you continue with the draw, p/u good sight picture and fire., If things are bad -which if you are using this technique for all the cookies, it is bad- then you fire b/f full presentation- but IME, I can hip shoot off of a point and get a 1st round hit about 85% of the time on targets out to 7 yards.

B/f I started using this method I was 50-50 at best.

The true value of this technigue is learning what it feels like to have a correct grip and "knowing" from all of your parctice that b/c you are consistant, the biz end to the pistol is pointed where it will do you the most good.

B/c of the practice my time from draw to accurate fire has gone down a lot. I know where the pistol is b/c I have done it hundreds of times

 

[brett30030]

...I see alot of time lost in the point finger, then insert in trigger and fire.

Are you fingering the trigger from the point it exits the holster/pocket? If not at some point it has to go from riding the frame to on trigger, does it not?
??? If this technique works; isn't letting your finger ride the frame a little longer while acquiring the target faster better?

 

[fatman]

Jocko has identified the conflict which I am still working on. I think I might be able to get a more accurate point by keeping my trigger finger in the frame just a heartbeat longer but I certainly don't want to keep it there even one millisecond longer than I need to. So far old habits have resulted in moving to the trigger perhaps a little faster than is necessary. Guess I will just have to continue to practice. Same old story, I have never in my life been able to reach the point where I could tell myself "OK, that's good enough."

 

[Eric_in_Nola]

Drills Drills Drills

the more you do it, the more critical you are of yourself (constructive criticism) the more you will be in tune to where every finger, joint and muscle are. Mili secods are hard to count. Key to this is being able to get off a good first shot w/i a reasonable time- i.e. very fast- from an unpreparaed position.

 

[Beach]

I have been practicing this type of thing since 1993, shooting in pits not at ranges. Most gun ranges wont allow holster work at all around here. None that I am aware of really. I have found that air soft Glocks are very much like my real ones. I got heavy weights in two sizes for around $30 each. They fit my the leather that my glocks ride in, and my timer can here them strike cardboard in the garage. I tape or draw a target and the BBs leave marks, I dot them with a sharpie to mark that one, look at my time, reset the shot timer and proceed. This is the cheapest and most convienient way of practicing point shooting IMO. Learn to make follow-up shots well at the range, and practice the fancy gun handling skills safely at home.

I do things basically the same way as you. I place my finger on the trigger a small fraction of a second before I intend to pull. This is the time the muzzle is coming on target. My CED shot timer will give a random signal, the record the time the shot goes off along with subsequent shots and split times. I used to pull off times of 1 second flat +/- a few hundredths. That is awful close to shooting youself, trigger disipline is crucial with live ammo. I suggest sticking with airsoft until you feel confident enough to do it with live ammo. I dont do it anymore.

Beach ;D

 

[Guest]

fatman, IMO it is all hand and eye coordination, One points a shotgun and that to me is the extension of either the finger or the hand, whatever you want to describe it as, but it is still point and shoot. I just have a very hard time running that finger down the side of the frame and then inserting before shooting and still feel I am on target. It certainly doesn't work for me, and I personally don't intend to put that amount of time in that practice drill, when I am not confident in it in the first place. Hip shooting is out for me anyway, never even want to practice that drill. Course that is just my opinion

 

[JAH]

Jocko, you up feeding the chickens at 5:48am? ;D
I would be curious how you draw. Surely you aren't putting your finger on the trigger as you're pulling it out of your pocket? My finger is on the trigger guard anyway when I draw, so I think it might feel natural for me. I have yet to try. To each his own.