P3at quality questions

Its been a while since I've been on this board. My P3at was reliable, but showing the early signs of peening, and I had lost confidence in it. I had an offer from someone I knew who knew all about the gun, including the peening, and wanted it anyway. I sold it for the down payment on a rifle I didn't want to pass up.

As you might expect, now I kind of miss the little guy. Can someone tell me the status of the peening slide issue? I've looked here and on other boards, and I keep seeing reference to slides continuing to peen. I really want to like this gun, but I just can't bring myself to rely on a pistol that can't be shot for thousands of rounds (practice makes for accuracy and skill), and that may start to deform and cause a malfunction after only a few hundred rounds.

There seems to be two kinds of P3at owners - those who buy one, buy one box of ammo, put gun in drawer, shoot perhaps 50 rounds per year, and report no problems, and those who actually shoot their guns in practice and training. Just because it's a backup doesn't mean one doesn't need to practice with it.

This last group seems to be composed of those who have had problems that were fixed, and those who had problems that have not (yet) been fixed. I realize some have had no issues at all, but they seem few and far between.

I understand this board is for those who love their Keltecs, and not for Keltec bashers. I am not trying to bash Keltec (although it may seem that way). Like I said, I really want to like and trust this gun. I would like to own about 1/2 dozen of them - (one for me, one for spouse, one for each kid, spares). My fear is the QC issues will only get worse over time.

They say the P3at is a 6000 round gun, but I don't know of anyone who has put 1/2 that through it. I do know of many who have only put several hundred through it, and parts begin to break or peen.

My question to you all...has Keltec fixed the QC issues related to the P3at (peening slide, breaking mag catch, etc) or is it still a crap shoot as to whether or not the gun will need major repairs? This gun may often be primary, and therefore reliability is non-negotiable. I am a firm believer in training, and I shoot a lot. If the gun can't stand up to thousands of rounds, that makes me worried.

Can someone enlighten me as to the current quality of the P3at? I really want to like it, and by several, but I continue to worry. Thanks, and sorry for the seeming rant.

moonshot

 

Thanks Spence,

I have several problems with relying on the lifetime warranty...

It is less costly for Keltec to get it right the first time than to replace parts at their own expense. I have read of those who have had peening slides replaced, only to have replaced slides peen. If Keltec wants to throw money away, that is their business, but as a small business owner, I know that wasting money and causing customer dissatisfaction is a fast road to closing ones doors.

Lifetime warranties are only useful if the business is still in business (see above).

Getting it fixed for free is great, but if it breaks just as I need it to save my life, or the life of someone I am responsible for, that warranty becomes useless. I don't want a gun I can get fixed for free. I want a gun that is not likely to need to be fixed, until many thousands of rounds have gone down the pipe.

The odd or unusual malfunction is one thing, as are the occasional lemon. All gun manufacturers have had this happen. The problems I see with the P3at are recurring problems, already identified and easily fixed. If Keltec needs to install a metal mag catch, they should do so when the gun is made. If they need to visually inspect the guide rod hole for thickness, or retool the drill, they should do so. If they need stronger springs, or better lock nuts, or whatever, they should use them. Not doing this shows me they either don't know how to fix the problems, or don't care enough about their customers to do so. A gun that malfunctions or breaks early in its life doesn't instill confidence, or brand loyalty.

If I can be convinced they have these problems fixed, I would go out tomorrow and buy another. I would keep buying them until I owned several. I am still waiting to be convinced. The warranty is nice, but I would rather pay more per gun and get it right the first time.

moonshot

 

Thanks, TxCajun.

You make a valid point. It is a niche gun, and it is wrong to try and make it something is was never designed to be. I still worry about it malfunctioning at a critical time. Confidence is everything. I don't believe in carry a lot, shoot a little, but I could always buy one for range use and one for carry.

How does the P32 compare to the P3at for durability and reliability? How effective is the 32cal compared to the 380? Neither get great marks for effectiveness.

Is the P3at really just an "in your face" defensive gun, or can it be effectively employed at, say, 10 yards? Not just accuracy, but ammo effectiveness?

As Keltec doesn't serial # the slides, how do I know if I have received a new one? Thanks.

moonshot

 

Double Tap,

If my gun had broken as your did after only one magazine, I don't think I would have shown your level of patience. I admire your willingness to give it a second chance. Two hundred rounds, however, is not even broken in yet. For me, a gun is not reliable until it has digested at least two hundred rounds of carry ammo without a single malfunction. If it malfunctions at round 165, I figure out what went wrong, and start over at zero. It's expensive and time consuming, but that is how I was trained, and I've had good training.

Your are right about how easy it is to conceal and about its accuracy. Something that small, thin and light can go almost anywhere. It does make it harder to shoot, but it is an acceptable trade off. As for accuracy, I did find my P3 to have good inherent accurate if I was holding with a solid two hand grip and taking my time to aim. Any rifled barrel is generally inherently accurate. However, it's practical accuracy that is one of the keys to defensive gun use.

If one is grabbing their gun from a position of disadvantage, using a less than perfect stance, and aiming at a possibly moving and beyond arms reach target, then sights and ergonomics come into play. Standing at the range and aiming at paper targets 3 yards away is nice, but in order to be accurate in real world scenarios, one needs to practice under actual conditions. Conditions of poor grip, poor light, stress, and non-cooperating targets.

This is why I do not believe in carry a lot and shoot a little. Remember, if you press the trigger, and you miss your target, that bullet will still hit something. I would prefer to practice with my carry gun and learn its nuances and be better able to hit my target, under all conditions. Should you ever use your gun defensively, you may have to be able to demonstrate proficiency. I don't think you can do that at only 50 or 100 rounds a year.

Sorry. I'm ranting again. This isn't a bashing of the P3. It is merely my opinion. Any gun must be shot often in practice to gain, and demonstrate, proficiency. If the gun can't stand up to it, then that is a problem, at least for me.

A 6000 round gun is more than strong enough, but parts can't break or shoot loose after only a few hundred, or one will never reach that level of competence.

moonshot

 

Double Tap,

I saw this post here...

http://www.ktog.org/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1196854179

If my link doesn't work, the poster had peening on a hard chrome slide serial # J8Qxx. I don't know if that preceeds or follows your slide.

moonshot

 

While Christmas shopping today, I was thinking about my concerns over the P3at, and the advise I have been receiving on this board. I had been trying to put it in simple terms, but I keep getting carried away, and up to this point, I think I have failed. I understand the P3at is not a Glock. It's not even a Kahr. It is a gun which will allow one to a) carry a spare when otherwise no spare would be carried or b) carry a gun when otherwise no gun would be carried.

It is not meant to be a high performance combat assault pistol, although it may in fact have to be employed in this role. There are far better firearms out there, more shootable, more durable, more accurate, and firing a better cartridge. Unfortunately, they are also larger and heavier.

There is definitely a place for the P3at in ones pocket, but only if it works!

This is my real concern. With all the reported breakages I keep reading about (failures to feed, extract, eject, mags falling out, extractors coming loose, trigger pins walking out, slides peening allowing recoil springs to pop out, etc) I worry and wonder if any P3at can be relied upon to function if and when it is called upon to save ones bacon.

My question to you all...

What can I do to ensure any P3at I might buy has what it takes to hold together. I need it to be usable for training, at least enough to ensure it functions with my carry ammo (200 rounds min) and then function long enough to test monthly (say one box of ammo). This should help ensure accuracy skills do not deteriorate.

I am willing to work with the gun, but I am not willing to rely on warranties and wishful thinking hoping that the gun holds together.

Any suggestions?

moonshot

 

JFB,

You're right. I had one, lost confidence in it, and sold it. I stated that in my opening post. I guess I am back in the questioning mode because, like you all here, I do see a niche being filled by the P3at. No other gun offers many of its attributes, and I wish I had several. However, my concerns remain. They still seem to be, in not unreliable, than perhaps unstable.

I love the concept, but the problems you all are fixing shouldn't need to be fixed at all. I'm not a paid Beta tester, nor am I a home gun smith. If I buy a NIB gun, it should be 100% without tweeking. And it should last through several thousand rounds. Any gun can fail to meet this test, but seldom do so many fail to meet it.

If the P3at's of today are more reliable, more durable, and more trouble-free then they were when I first had mine, I will likely buy another. I'd like several. However, if they are still being produced with frequent parts breakage and failure-prone operation, I'll pass and perhaps try later.

Every time someone goes to the range and reports back that their P3at had some problem that resulted in it not firing, they should think about what would have happened if that had been in a real self-defense situation, and not a range session. I've owned many guns in the past. I can't remember when one of them ever malfunctioned.

I really do want one. They fill an important role, and I want them to work for me, but my reliability requirements might be higher than Keltec's.

That doesn't make me better then they are, or anyone who chooses to rely upon one, it just makes their product not compatible with my needs. It's too bad. I could be a great customer.

moonshot