P3AT & Defensive Attitude

Discussion in 'P-3AT' started by RAT76, Dec 5, 2007.

  1. RAT76

    RAT76 Well-Known Member

    Aug 21, 2006
    Recently we had an ex-member with a problem that caused him to be made EX. It got me to thinking. Why is it that we (or at least some of us, me included) go semi-ballistic when someone says something bad about our "little big guns"?

    Tx, if this is better in the counter by all means please move it.

    Just thought I'd throw this out for discussion.
  2. adamsesq

    adamsesq New Member

    Dec 25, 2006
    Jim, I don't think it is as much that someone says something bad about our little bundles of bang, as much as it is their attitude.

    I could, and do, say lots bad about my weapons, all of them (KT or otherwise) have their drawbacks as well as their plusses. I don't mind sharing my problems with others' problems, and I don't mind being empathetic over common issues. I especially enjoy helping someone that wants to overcome those issues with the vast knowledge that KTOG members have.

    The big difference TO ME around here is that I don't come to play in this sand box just to listen to people complain. There are lots of places I can go play and listen to people b!t(h just to hear themselves talk but I don't like listening to that and don't think I would spend as much time here if that were allowed.

    -Scott (who's $.02 is now worth $.01 due to the fall in the value of the dollar)

  3. RAT76

    RAT76 Well-Known Member

    Aug 21, 2006
    I agree Scott, it's the attitude not the fact that they have a problem.  It does seem that the P3 attracts this kind of thing.  I mean we don't seem to have these problems in the P11 or Subbie forums.

    I know that I tend to react / over-react when the P3 is involved more so than if someone is ragging on Rugers.  While this may be seen as blasphemy but I have gotten a lot more involved in collecting Rugers than KTs.  Heck I've only got one more KT on my wish list & I've only got three four (oops forgot the P3, ROTFLMAO) now & one of those may end up being sold sometime in the future.

    That being said, trash talk my P3 & I'm quick to respond.  :-/
  4. adamsesq

    adamsesq New Member

    Dec 25, 2006
    One fine crisp $100 bill is ready and waiting for you. $150.00 if it comes with an old fashinoned incandescent flashlight thingymajigger in its forearm.... ;D

  5. RAT76

    RAT76 Well-Known Member

    Aug 21, 2006
    One fine crisp $100 bill is ready and waiting for you.  $150.00 if it comes with an old fashinoned incandescent flashlight thingymajigger in its forearm....   ;D



    As it happens it's the S2K I had in mind. The flashlite thingie has a home on the SUB9 which will be the LAST gun to go if I ever do have to liquidate my collection.

    Thanks for the offer tho. ;D
  6. nicneufeld

    nicneufeld New Member

    Mar 9, 2006
    I don't think pocket gun owners are more "defensive" by nature, I think they are surrounded by some other gun owners that have an out of the ordinary predilection to cast doubt on the gun. Why? Maybe because the large gun they are stuck with cramps into their side and makes carry uncomfortable and sometimes not even possible, and they keenly remember the substantially larger price tag for their gun. I don't know, but I've run across people that seem to feel the need to criticize a gun like this. Dealers (in hopes of getting you to look at their more profitable Glocks, XDs, and 1911s) recite stories of "unreliability", and the gun buyers that the dealers sell the 1911 to remembers those stories, and pulls them out to console themselves every time he tries to stuff a 3lb hunk of $1000 metal into his pants instead of slipping a small, lightweight pocket auto into his pocket. D@mn those Kel-Tec owners, they have it so easy, and for so much less money! So the sour grapes attitude is to seek out any possible drawbacks to the gun and inflate them, often parroting hearsay from disingenuous gun salesmen.

    Completely ignoring the pocket auto issue, I think more misinformation gets thrown around in gun shops and gunsmith shops than in Washington DC, sometimes!

    Oh, and I have nothing against 1911s or expensive guns. But I won't be trading my P3AT for one of them any time soon.
  7. adamsesq

    adamsesq New Member

    Dec 25, 2006
    I couldn't think of any other cute way to describe the Sub9. But okay, I'll give you $151 if its the Sub 9 ;)

  8. adamsesq

    adamsesq New Member

    Dec 25, 2006
    +1 Nic.

    For the record - I will GLADLY trade my P3AT for many more expensive weapons. But only if I can then sell them off and buy 2 or more P3ATs with the money!!!

  9. Syndil

    Syndil New Member

    May 8, 2007
    I would agree that sometimes attitude has something to do with it, but I have also witnessed people getting undeservedly flamed for posting problems with their Kel-Tecs, so it goes both ways. IMO the membership here can be a little too quick with the insults when a newbie posts about a problem. Perhaps a new member shouldn't start with posts about problems right off the bat, but for some people that's the entire reason they went searching for info on Kel-Tec and it's what brought them to KTOG in the first palce. Having problems with something--whether it be a gun, a computer, whatever--can frustrate a person and put them in an unusually foul mood. That doesn't automatically mean they are a**holes and running them through the ringer just to defend our beloved brand isn't going to improve their opinion of whatever KT product they are having an issue with or, more importantly, KTOG. We as "ambassadors of Kel-Tec-dom" should be more gracious and give new members the benefit of the doubt and assume they are frustrated and venting and do the best we can to help them without talking down to them or calling them names for daring to pee in our koolaid, as it were. What I mean by that is the next time some newbie posts a topic akin to "worthless P3-AT" or "POS Kel-Tec pistol" because they are having trouble with their new one, we should NOT get offended by the wording and do our best to help them out and turn their opinion around. It's the mature thing to do and it's the right thing to do.
  10. nicneufeld

    nicneufeld New Member

    Mar 9, 2006
    For the record - I will GLADLY trade my P3AT for many more expensive weapons. But only if I can then sell them off and buy 2 or more P3ATs with the money!!!

    Umm, let me correct myself, yes, I'll trade my P3-AT for a high end Kimber or Barrett or something similarly expensive. I guess the more accurate way of putting it is, if I had a choice between carrying the Expensive Monster Gun and a humble P3AT, the P3AT wins every time.

    Well, not every time. I bought a 10mm Monster Gun for winter and woods carry.
  11. RAT76

    RAT76 Well-Known Member

    Aug 21, 2006
    +1 Syndil, excellent points.

    The following is "tounge in cheek".

    I do try & be understanding but when they go on & on & on & on .......

    So what do we do?  Give them 3 posts to adjust their attitude THEN pile on?   ;)

    Back to serious,

    Sometimes I do wonder if I just get a kick out of feeding the trolls.  :-? :-/
  12. nicneufeld

    nicneufeld New Member

    Mar 9, 2006
    And Syndil, I see where you are coming from and agree partially (as regarding giving new people the benefit of the doubt), but I still don't think there is justification for many of the "worthless P3-AT" or "POS Kel-Tec pistol" threads. While I have empathy for a KT user that has problems with their new purchase, I don't think that gives carte blanche for rudeness and complaining. Perhaps if we put this in the Terms and Conditions (thanks to Scott):

    KT customer complaint line: 1-800-515-9983

    KT Tinkerers and fan club: www.ktog.org

    The recent "Boing!" thread is a perfect example. There have been a number of threads and new members that logged on complaining of frustration with their KT, and many members were both empathetic and helpful with numerous suggestions, and these members have gone on to become regularly visiting members. I see no problem with blowing off a little steam in a thread, then backing off on complaints and starting to be receptive to constructive advice. But unfortunately what happens annoyingly often is you get a new member who starts complaining and bad mouthing the gun repeatedly, but is uninterested in practical advice or suggestions, as was the case with kimberly or whoever in the "boing" thread. He turned out to be a repeat customer on the bannings!

    But quite often a person can start out a little angry and combative and then end up fitting right in and getting along fine with everybody...see the "irritated is an understatement" thread for an example:


    Of course if we just said up front, want to b****, call Kel-Tec, that might at least prevent some confusion on what KTOG is for. Of course the CS reps in Cocoa will be cursing us for that! :D
  13. adamsesq

    adamsesq New Member

    Dec 25, 2006
    I do look at KTOG like a neighborhood sandbox or someone's living/game room. If you are a new person in that environment and you come in head-strong and full of **** and vinegar it is going to be difficult to be liked. And frankly I don't think I have any obligation to forgive your lack of manners if you come in that way. I think the newbie has an obligation to at least do a little bit of reading (and learning the rules) before jumping in with both feet and if he doesn't, well, he deserves what he gets - natural selection. Compared to at least one other board available I think KTOG does a pretty good job of giving some slack. I would not dream of posting on another board until I had read quite a few of the posts there and gotten a feel for the flavor and key players.

    That said, anyone can be reasonably upset and I think we give a lot of empathy and constructive advice. Even his second time around Kimber got lots of social encouragement on how we play here yet he just didn't care. Others have taken the same advice and become great long term contributing members here.

  14. RAT76

    RAT76 Well-Known Member

    Aug 21, 2006
    Good examples Nic.  Artimus has turned into a valued member of our community.  Kimber/CovertFolder, definately not so much.

    So we give them one or two chances to straighten up their act THEN we can hammer yell at them???

    Jim, who is feeling onery this afternoon, it's been a pretty good day.

    edited in light of the next post. ;) ;D
  15. nicneufeld

    nicneufeld New Member

    Mar 9, 2006
    Well, and the best thing to remember is, none of US lowly maggots can do any hammering or banning. That defaults to the Moderator-in-Chief, who I say with no intention of garnering Brownie Points, has always proven to be patient and slow to wrath, and very just in his implementations of executive power. That patience must come from long hard years at his day job, I shouldn't wonder! Teenagers, yikes!

    By the time people actually get banned here they've dug their OWN grave halfway to the PRC...they usually require no help from us at that point in getting banned!
  16. brotherjethro

    brotherjethro New Member

    Jan 8, 2007
    Vancouver, WA, USA

    Regarding questions about quality:  Let's face it, the P3AT is cheap, and pretty darn well made for the price.  I've never had a problem, but from what I've read here, I trust 100% that Kel-Tec will make it right if I do.  In fact, I like the little sucker so much, I'd probably buy a second to carry while the first is being repaired.

    Regarding the caliber:  How many times can it be said?  Any gun you're willing to bring with you is better than a 12 gauge at home.  How many people have told you the .380 is unacceptable and that they would never carry anything smaller than a 9mm, or .40, or .45?  And of those, how many were actually carrying anything at all?  Point made.  It's not that I'm a kel-tec fanboy, it's just that I'm lazy:  Show me a .40 or .45 that's as easy to carry as the P3AT, and if I can afford it, I'll buy it.

    Here's a fact I'll throw out there:  I've had a concealed carry permit for about 15 years now.  Before I got the P3AT, I actually carried less than once a year.  In fact, I bought a Glock 27 about 13 years ago, specifically for CCW.  Carried it maybe twice.  Since the P3AT purchase, I've started carrying almost everywhere I go (except for work, where it's not allowed).

  17. The above quote descirbes my start here... not so sure about "getting along fine with everybody" now, but I have managed not to get banned and actually consider one or two of you as friends.

    BUT... I did not start out with POS language. I did voice frustration, asked for help, and then took advice. I was very close to throwing the baby out with the bath water, but you guys helped me hang on.

    From my monitor, it is all about attitude and failure to heed warnings.

    I have never seen any one get the boot with out loud and clear messages to change the tone of post or else. (As was the case with kimber aka covert.)

    Last thing..... This is a great board, the only board I ever stayed with. I trust that Tx will continue to keep it that way.

    Thanks again Tx.
  18. Rubb

    Rubb Well-Known Member

    Jun 19, 2006
    The thing that bothers me the most is the lack of research.

    If you research KT you will know:
    * If you have issues KTOG can help.
    * KT will fix it FREE for life.

    If you don't and buy anyway and it has FTF, FTE. FT!@#$ peening prodding poking
    it's not too late to read, understand, ask and solve the problem.
    We never hear from those that are not here..If they're here they
    can read, understand, ask and solve the issues.

    Instead we get this POSKT crap and that pi$$es me off
    b!tchin won't solve a thing, action will.....

    I've sent back a Ruger a Para and yes my 3AT and they all got fixed.
    I highly doubt these companies have a designated b!tcher to b!tch guns
    into working right.

    Call me crazy but, it seems simple to me :eek:
  19. dgreer

    dgreer New Member

    Nov 14, 2007
    +1 ... as a newbie myself, I have read and researched quite a bit before posting here. I have been lucky with my purchase and have had no problems, even if I did, I now know that it could be fixed. But, I will say that I have been a little surprised by the flaming that some new posters have received. And YES, their attitudes were less than friendly.

    I guess as a 48 year old fireman I have become accustomed to dealing with 'youngsters' and their 'have to have it now!' mentalities and lack of patience. Furthermore, as I see on other forums...it is common to talk trash and throw around attitudes since anonymity protects them. I fear that this is a national crisis of character that I hope we can overcome in our young folks. I think they just want their little new toy to work like their new video games did and I think it is simply a question of maturity.

    Now, having said that...no one can toss the flames as well as more mature individuals armed with the facts...and as much as I enjoy the banter and info here, sometimes it seems like a little piling on. Perhaps a referral to a sticky note with the acceptable posting attitudes, before offering help would quell some of the flaming.

    DG...who's view is something like that of a wallflower at a town hall dance. ;)
  20. Sangueffusor

    Sangueffusor New Member

    May 13, 2007
    If you've got problems...you can complain about it, or you can actually DO SOMETHING about it! Guess which one I would choose?