Discussion in 'P-3AT' started by Packer, Dec 14, 2006.

  1. Packer

    Packer Banned

    May 14, 2005
      This test is a continuation of the PF-9 test of the same name. Setup info can be found Here:


      I wanted to test the .380 UMC JHP against some of its peers.

      Here is the ammo used in this test:


      They were shot into a denim-clothed wetpack that had soaked for 24 hours:


    Here is the P3AT used in this test:


      And here are the fired bullets on display:


  2. Packer

    Packer Banned

    May 14, 2005
    DNE= Did not expand.
    OPE= Only partially expanded.
    ER=Effectiveness Rating
    CBG= Calculated penetration in Ballistic Gelatin.


                     Round                 ER                   P                  X                CBG
    09----------WIN-ST-------3.02------------08.50-------- OPE-------12.75”


  3. Packer

    Packer Banned

    May 14, 2005

      UMC JHP works pretty good as FMJ. If you can buy it cheaper than FMJ for practice ammo, then use it for practice. It IS very accurate.

      However, I cannot reccommend that anyone carry this stuff in their P3AT for personal defense.

      It's interesting that the top two .380 performers are also what I carry interleaved in my own P3AT. I did not PLAN it that way, that's just how it turned out!

      I also find it interesting that the hottest .380 FMJ that I can purchase in new production, (A. E. FMJ)  out of the lowly P3AT, is about as effective as the hottest 9mm FMJ! (CCI Blazer Brass.) These were both shot into the very same pack:

    .380: 02-------AM-EAGLE------3.55------------10.00--------FMJ-------15.00”  
    9mm: 11-------BLZ-BRASS-----3.46-------------09.75-------FMJ-------14.63"

    NO .380 round that expanded, (Not even the mighty DPX!) reached the magic FBI 12" standard in this test. Almost ALL of the 9mms reached this penetration though. THIS is why I interleave DPX and FMJ in my P3AT--and carry 9mm whenever possible.

  4. RAT76

    RAT76 Well-Known Member

    Aug 21, 2006
    2PP, It seems that REM UMC is a pretty good FMJ round.

    Which of these is the best bang for the buck?  I'm having a bit of trouble sorting out the results.  The problem is at my end not yours.  

    Once again thanks for the excellent work.  Your sacrifices in the pursuit of knowledge are inspiring.
  5. Packer

    Packer Banned

    May 14, 2005
    Funny! That's the same conclusion I was posting as you posted!

  6. Packer

    Packer Banned

    May 14, 2005
      That would be the Win Silver Tips. All of the others, (Except for the miserably ineffective UMC JHPs that are $20 per 100.) come in boxes of 20 for $15-$20. Win Silvertips are about $25 for a box of 50. These were my main carry round before DPX, and they were "Possum Tested" to feed, function and KILL from a P3AT.

    Packer's Best Buy .380!

  7. onebohemian

    onebohemian New Member

    Nov 20, 2006
    I know very little about ammo and probably less about physics, but I've read lots of articles about carry ammo on the Internet over the years. I still don't understand why the UMC did not expand at all? I would have expected at least some expansion because it's a JHP. It's almost like the jacket kept the hollowpoint from expanding. Am I the only one who finds that extremely strange, almost to the point of UMC JHP being considered defective?
  8. Packer

    Packer Banned

    May 14, 2005
      Traditionally, Most .380 pistols have longer barrels than the P3AT. The longer the barrel, the higher the velocity of the projectile. (bullet)

      The barrel length affects performance because the hot gasses stay IN the longer barrel for more time, and therefore push on the bullet for a longer time period.

      Imagine drag racing the 1/4 mile, but letting off the gas at 1/8 mile. you will coast past the finish line much slower than if you accellerated all the way to the end.

      All JHPs are built to expand at a certain velocity. The UMC  are not reaching their designed expansion velocity from the short barrel P3AT.

      From a 4 inch barrel, the UMCs are probably fine. They are just not right for the sub 3 inch P3AT barrel.

      This is why, when comparing ammo by specs, you need to know the barrel length used in the tests. It is also why these wetpack  tests are important.

      Many of us are walking around, confident that our carry ammo is up to the job. Unbeknownst to some, their ammo is for a longer gun and won't work well in a shortie!

    There is a very good reason why the DPX round does so well in the P3AT and the P-11: They were DESIGNED from the beginning to work well in a short barrel!

  9. jocko

    jocko Guest

    thats why the dpx is such a great round for the 380 kt. Corbon did ALL of their testing with kt 380's. they designed it around the short barrel and as u can see from all tests this dpx in the 380 has 100% expansion with no weight loss either. Other rounds come close but IMO close matters alot in horseshoes and hand grenades. Pay the extra shoot the dpx and why worry about all the other hp rounds.
  10. some1yell

    some1yell New Member

    Oct 10, 2006
    Sorry didn't catch at what range you were shooting.
  11. Packer

    Packer Banned

    May 14, 2005

      Do you mean how far from the pack I was shooting, or what Shooting Range I took the guns to? And WHY are you sorry?

  12. Rubb

    Rubb Well-Known Member

    Jun 19, 2006
    I would assume the Remington Express 88gr.
    is the same as the UMC 88gr. minus the
    water proof primer and flash suppresent.
    That's a bummer now that I've bought my third
    $23 box since I have to start reliability tests
    over again.

    From the Effectiveness Rating It looks as
    if DPX is the only round better than a FMJ round
    but, I would disagree with that, and on the other
    hand there is no mention of barrel length here ???


    However I would rather carry the Remington JHP
    over a FMJ (my brain hurts :-/)

    I'll get some Gold Dots like I carry in my 9mm
    until I can find DPX I may even switch both calibers.

  13. brett30030

    brett30030 New Member

    Jun 24, 2006
    How is the effectiveness rating derived?
  14. Packer

    Packer Banned

    May 14, 2005
      Simple: Penetration times expansion. In the case of FMJ, expansion means the bullet diameter of .355.

  15. some1yell

    some1yell New Member

    Oct 10, 2006
    How far away, and I guess Im not that sorry. I just feel like I dont know alot about these pistols or wetpack test and assumed that maybe there was a standard range for testing them.
  16. Bobo

    Bobo Well-Known Member Supporter

    Jun 13, 2005
    Great info!!! ;D

    I've been carrying a mix of Santa Barbara FMJ and Gold Dot JHP. I'll switch the Gold Dots to DPX when they become available locally. In great part I came to the conclusion that this combination is best for my use due to your tests and oldgrandpa's tests.

    Thanks Packer!!
  17. Packer

    Packer Banned

    May 14, 2005
    The only way I can shoot so many holes in a small pack, is by shooting from less than a foot. Some people shoot the pack from a distance, but it's hard to get to stand on its side.

    Actually, shooting this way, with the pack on the ground, maximum velocity right out of the barrel and gravity helping the speed, gives the tested cartridge every benefit of the doubt.

    If it won't expand under THESE conditions, then it isn't going to.

  18. bombtech

    bombtech New Member

    May 17, 2006
    Great work, Packer! You are the Man. Makes me feel good about the 7 rounds of DPX I'm sitting on right now.
  19. Packer

    Packer Banned

    May 14, 2005
    You are most welcome, Bobo, I'm glad to be able to help.

    I wish I had some Santa Barbara to test against the AE! But 15" penetration seems like plenty.
  20. peaceful99

    peaceful99 New Member

    Oct 21, 2005
    Good test Packer, valuable information for us. I just bought a box of Winchester silvertips today ($25 plus tax for 50). Does Winchester make a white box JHP (personal protection) round in .380 caliber like they do in 9mm? I've never seen it.