Community for Kel-Tec Shooters banner

1 - 20 of 23 Posts

·
Administrator
Joined
·
31,906 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
This stickied thread is for publishing information strictly related to 32acp Chrono Data and information regarding reloading the 32acp. Off-topic posts will be removed, so please keep this thread clean and utilitarian.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3 Posts
I was planning on running different ammo over a chrono anyway. Chrono didn't pick up two rounds of Fiocchi. New caliber for me, so no reloading data yet.
CED Data Collector - 10/9/19
Kel-Tec P32
(f = flyers, (ED) = edited shots)
60F
Total Strings = 3
SD N-1
Feet Per Second


PPU 71gr FMJ
1) 738.5 -21.3
2) 792.5 32.7
3) 799.3 39.5
4) 631.7 -128.1 f
5) 792.7 32.9
6) 707.7 -52.1
7) 792.3 32.5
8) 804 44.2
9) 778.6 18.8
10) 760.9 1.1

High: 804
Low: 631.7
E.S.: 172.3
Ave.: 759.8
S.D.: 54.4
95%: 41


Remington 71gr
1) 844.2 24.9
2) 819.7 0.4
3) 718.3 -101.0 f
4) 835.1 15.8
5) 839.5 20.2
6) 819.5 0.2
7) 831.2 11.9
8) 846.9 27.6
9) 810.2 -9.1
10) 828.5 9.2

High: 846.9
Low: 718.3
E.S.: 128.6
Ave.: 819.3
S.D.: 37.3
95%: 28.1


Fiocchi 73gr
1) 861.7 13.1
2) 838.3 -10.3
3) 871.6 23
4) 825.9 -22.7
5) 827.1 -21.5
6) 856.1 7.5
7) 848.7 0.1
8) 859.6 11

High: 871.6
Low: 825.9
E.S.: 45.7
Ave.: 848.6
S.D.: 16.7
95%: 14.9

(End Of Data)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3 Posts
Got a chance to do some reloading over the weekend, since I didn't want to shoot 3-gun in the snow.
Tried 2 different bullets; 71gr Berry's (.312) and 78gr Missouri coated (.313). Vectan GM3, PPU cases, and Fiocchi primers were used for everything.
There's not a whole lot of data out there, and I'm not allowed to post links, but you can Google "tiropratico 32acp" to find where I got something to start with.
Figured 1.9gr would be a good start. First couple rounds with the Berry's failed to cycle. COAL 0.980". I then realized I forgot how to reload, and the powder measure settled down at 2.3gr. Berry's still failed to cycle. I was getting unburnt powder as well, so I wasn't sure if there was enough neck tension and seated them deeper. They finally cycled at 0.958".
78gr MO needed to bring COAL 0.933" to get it to chamber. Decided not to mess with the powder measure. Because YOLO.

Wind finally died down, so I was able to run some chrono data. May not be the best. The lights were acting up, got some weird readings, there was still a little bit of a breeze, and it missed some shots.
10 shots for the Berry's, 5 for the MO.
String 2 is 45 ACP from a 1911 just to test the chrono wasn't completely FUBAR. Both were picked up.
CED Data Collector - 10/13/19
Kel-Tec P32
(f = flyers, (ED) = edited shots)
35F

Total Strings = 3
Feet Per Second

2.3gr GM3 Berry 71gr 0.958 OAL
*Incomplete ignition, cases sooty, primers rounded
String 1
1) 189.6 -119.6
2) 404.5 95.3
3) 375.2 66.0
4) 208.0 -101.2
5) 193.1 -116.1
6) 359.6 50.4
7) 303.4 -5.8
8) 440.5 131.3

High: 440.5
Low: 189.6
E.S.: 250.9
Ave.: 309.2
S.D.: 100.9
95%: ±90.2

45 ACP
String 2
1) 850.1 -15.1
2) 880.2 15.0

High: 880.2
Low: 850.1
E.S.: 30.1
Ave.: 865.2
S.D.: 21.3
95%: ±270.6

2.3gr GM3 MO 78gr LRN, coated 0.933 OAL
String 3
1) 727.7 -30.0
2) 541.3 -216.4
3) 693.6 -64.1
4) 1068.0 310.3

High: 1068.0
Low: 541.3
E.S.: 526.7
Ave.: 757.7
S.D.: 222.2
95%: ±408.2

(End Of Data)
 

·
Grand Poobah
Joined
·
1,357 Posts
Welcome to the KTOG, jspace! That tiropratico site is a good one. I have used it for some rifle data in the past. Is the inability to post links just a "new member without enough posts yet" limitation?

.32 ACP can be a bit tricky to reload, and I have encountered several issues along the way. For starters, there are slight differences between American (SAAMI) and European (CIP) cases. Here are links to the specifications and diagrams from SAAMI .32 ACP (on p 44 as counted by Adobe Reader, p 35 at the bottom of the page): https://saami.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/ANSI-SAAMI-Z299.3-CFP-and-R-Approved-2015-12-14-Posting-Copy.pdf and CIP 7.65 Browning: https://bobp.cip-bobp.org/uploads/tdcc/tab-iv/tabivcal-en-page12.pdf.

The two standards overlap, and the most significant differences are that American brass is thinner, and uses a slightly larger bullet. (0.3125“ vs 0.309”). American bullets can cause European brass to bulge, possibly causing feeding issues. Likewise, European bullets in American cases may exhibit insufficient "neck tension" to hold the bullet in place until it is crimped. Also, the extractor groove is a bit different, with the narrow part of the European brass being a bit narrower in diameter, and the deepest part of the groove being a bit wider. The angle between the case body and the bottom of the groove is the same (20 degrees). This means the European extractor groove is larger, and this might help feeding, since the protruding rim of the cartridge being loaded can get a running start before it encounters the groove of the cartridge below it. In general, though, CIP specs fall within the tolerances given by SAAMI.

The protruding rim of this cartridge contributes to a phenomenon known as “rimlock” in which the rim of the cartridge up to be loaded is behind the rim on the next cartridge in the magazine. This stops the gun in its tracks, and the easiest way to clear it is to disassemble the magazine and dump everything out the bottom. Cartridges shorter than 0.940 “ are prone to rimlock. This gets most JHP loads, and is a main reason why most shooters recommend FMJ loads for all uses of .32 ACP, including self defense. https://www.thektog.org/threads/how-ammo-makes-a-big-difference.271762/

I have had difficulty getting chronograph readings that make sense, especially from my P-32s. Jspace has observed the same kind of thing, based on his data. This is indicated by the large extreme spreads in some of the strings. I'm relieved that I'm not the only one with this problem. My theory is that it is due to a lot of unburned powder emerging from the barrels of these guns. This problem gets better the farther out I put my chronograph, but I get more likely to shoot my chronograph when I do this. My other solution has been to buy a gun with a longer barrel, in this case a Beretta 81FS, with a 3.8 inch barrel, which is closer in length to the test barrels.

People rightfully are concerned about overcharges when reloading ammo, but I have seen evidence of undercharging in both commercial ammo, and so-called max loads, in the recent books. This evidence consists of soot streaks on the cases, and particles in my face, because the pressure is insufficient to expand the cases enough to make a seal in the chamber. The unburned powder mentioned above is another sign of low pressure. My suspicions are borne out by comparing old loading manuals with new ones. For example, a load published in the Lyman Handbook 44th edition, published in 1968, gives a load using the #311252 bullet cast from Lyman #2 alloy having a max charge of Unique as 3.1 grains, velocity = 995 feet per second., whereas a cartridge using the same bullet and powder but published in 2016 in the Lyman 50th edition, gives a max charge of 2.6 grains and velocity = 860 fps. (The starting charge has dropped from 2.0 gr to 1.8 gr.) Unique is famous for its consistency through the decades, so its probably not a change in the powder.

There is also not much in the way of projectile selection. The only hollowpoint projectiles specifically for the .32 ACP, that appear to be commercially available, are the Hornady 60 gr XTP and the PPU 71 gr JHP. I don’t know how terminal performance of the latter is in a hot load, but unlike the Hornady bullet, it is amenable to loading long enough to avoid rimlock.

Finally, officially, .32 ACP is roll crimped since the case is supposed to headspace on the rim and not on the case mouth. However, when a commercial .32 ACP cartridge is placed in the chamber of a P-32 barrel, nothing is touching the rim. Presumably, it headspaces on the case mouth, which calls for a taper crimp instead. With the Beretta, the rim contacts the breech of the chamber, as expected. On the P-32, the extractor engages the rim, and this might explain why early P-32s needed an upgraded extractor.

buzzsaw
 

·
Grand Poobah
Joined
·
1,357 Posts
My purpose for loading/reloading .32 ACP was not initially to save money, but to obtain ammunition that is not available commercially. .32 ACP has always been a marginal self defense caliber. However, through the recent decades, it seems to have gotten weaker and weaker. I suspect that weak guns, and strong lawyers, might have something to do with this. I do not appreciate my highly-concealable and good-quality self defense tools being held hostage to the least common denominator. There are some quite powerful .32 ACP loads out there, but they are over $1.20 per round (Buffalo Bore) and/or hard to find regularly (Cor-Bon). They also are loaded very short to fit the Seecamp (designed for the Winchester Silvertip), and are prone to rimlock in other pistols. The Fiocchi semi-jacketed hollow point load isn't what it used to be, either.

For reloading .32 ACP, I use the following dies. Lee carbide 3-die set number 90622. It has a sizing die, a powder through expander die, and a seating/crimp die. I adjust the seating/crimp die to NOT crimp.

To this I add a Lee Factory Crimp Die (FCD), number 90067. However, I've had it customized. As this die comes, it is designed to do a ROLL crimp, which is the standard crimp for .32 ACP, and the revolver calibers the die can also be used with. Considering that my 1st Generation P-32s appear to headspace on the case mouth, a TAPER crimp is what is called for here. I ordered from Lee a taper crimp sleeve for the die. They took their regular sleeve, turned it around, and machined a taper in the other side, so now mine can do both. IIRC, this cost $20-30. If you order the FCD directly from Lee, and request the custom sleeve then, you might can save a little. (They really ought to make them this way, in light of the popularity of the P-32.)

The FCD for straight-wall pistol calibers includes a carbide sizing ring, just like a sizing die. This will iron out any bulges in the case due to seating American 0.312-0.313 inch bullets into European brass. It essentially sizes the bullet, already in the case, so that the finished cartridge will have the correct diameter to chamber correctly. The FCD can absolve lots of sins, and I try to have one for every caliber I load.

Those four dies should get you started, and may be all you need.

The Lee seating die is made for round-nosed bullets. I wanted to load flat-nose and hollow point bullets, also. I ended up adding a Hornady seating/crimp die #044113, which is made with the XTP bullet in mind, and contacts the bullet ogive, and added the optional micrometer adjustment stem, #44090, mainly for convenience. This die also works for flat-nose bullets. Since it does a roll crimp, I set it to not crimp.

I bought new Starline brass. It is made to the American standard, so it's better with the commonly available cast bullets without resizing them. I'm using European brass with the European (PPU) 71 gr hollow point, and other 0.308-0.309 inch bullets, and American brass with cast bullets, which are usually 0.313. All go through the FCD.

For powder measuring, I use a Lee Deluxe Perfect Powder Measure, or a Hornady Lock-N-Load powder measure with the pistol metering drum. I weigh charges on an RCBS Chargemaster 1500, or on an RCBS beam scale, #09070. Other equipment is probably fine.

buzzsaw
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
128 Posts
The Hornady 60 grain XTP-HP in the P32

I've loaded and fired a couple hundred hand-loaded Hornady 60 grain XTP-HP in various P32s without any issues, including "rimrock". Both Hornady and Fiocchi load this bullet in their factory ammo. I've not used the Hornady, but have fired well over 300 rounds of the Fiocchi 60 XTP-HP factory round, product SKU 32APHP, without any failures of any kind. (Note that this SKU is has been loaded with Hornady bullet for several years in the "Shooting Dynamics" line, despite Fiocchi selling another load SKU 32XTP in the "Extrema" which is virtually identical).

The Fiocchi factory round is loaded to an OAL of 0.945". The Hornady bullet is 0.370" long, and only 0.010" of bullet shank is inside the case. While this seems marginal in terms of bullet tension, I have never had a bullet loosen in this or my equivalent handloads. These loads are regularly carried in the pistol and in spare magazines that get tossed into a pocket, bag, glove box, etc, and have given nary a problem.

My handload with this bullet also measures OAL 0.945". There is published loading data for this bullet available on loaddata.com, which is a subscription website. Lee factory dies were used, which in addition to being economical, worked perfectly. A taper crimp was easily obtained, and loading was done on a Dillon RL550B progressive press. Charges were thrown using a Dillon powder measure. The small size of the cases and components made for more tedious loading than is customary.

I obtained the following velocity and accuracy data from my handloads and factory ammo with the Hornady 60 grain XTP-HP (fps = average feet per second of 10 shots fired, measured at 10 feet; SD = standard deviation of the average fps; FPE = calculated foot pounds of energy; 15Y = 15 yard 5-shot group size):

Hornady 60 grain XTP-HP Handload
2.7 gr Hodgdon Titegroup
Remington factory primed brass (Rem #1-1/2 primer)
OAL 0.945":
P32 #1 - 930 fps SD 33, FPE 115, 15Y 2.5"
P32 #2 - 919 fps SD 8, FPE 113, 15Y 3.5"

Fiocchi 32APHP (Hornady 60 grain XTP-HP bullet):
P32 #1 - 925 fps SD 21, FPE 114, 15Y 3.0"
P32 #2 - 903 fps SD 7, FPE 109, 15Y 2.0"

These results were obtained over the past five years. The velocity and accuracy of the Fiocchi factory load is so nearly identical to my handloaded version, that the handload is a fine substitute for practice ammo.

In my most recent test of the Fiocchi 32APHP load four months ago, the round was fired into Clear Ballistics gelatin at a distance of 10 feet, with the following results (Pen = total penetration, Exp = average bullet expansion):

P32 #3 - 928 fps SD 15, 15Y 2.0"
920 fps (impact round), Pen 14.5", Exp 0.372"


IMG_4682 (1).jpg

This is a fine bullet and loading, and has worked perfectly in several P32s.

I've also succesfully loaded the Rimrock Bullets 75 grain FPL cast bullet, which is identical to the projectile used in the Buffalo Bore .32 Auto load. This required some trial and error, but that is another post.
 

·
Grand Poobah
Joined
·
1,357 Posts
KuduKing, you have inspired me to revisit both the two Fiocchi loads, and the 60 gr XTP bullet. I had posted on another thread about comparing these two, and had downplayed my results because I thought there might be something wrong with the old box of Extrema I had. It definitely didn't perform up to Fiocchi's reputation. I'm ordering more of each and will try them again. I am also going to revisit the 60 gr XTP bullet. My first attempts at trying to load them at 0.965" over 2.5 gr of Bullseye were pretty lousy.

P-32 #1 - 648 fps, SD 30.3, FPE 56, ES 104
Yep, that energy is right. .22 lr is thumbing it's ogive at it. I don't even want to think about the group size. I do well to keep good ammo on a dinner plate at 15 yards with a P-32.

I then decided to load by the book, or somewhat close:
From Hornady 10th edition: 2.2 gr Bullseye OAL 0.925" Federal # 100 primers (Winchester WSP specified, but Fed is what I had. Is there really that much difference?), new Starline brass.

P-32 #1 - 669 fps, SD 46.5, FPE 59.6, ES 146. (This should get 900 fps out of a 3.6" barrel. I estimate I should get about 810 out of the P-32.)

From Lee Modern Reloading Second Edition: 2.5 gr Bullseye, OAL 0.940" Federal # 100 primers (Mr. Lee doesn't say what he uses, but he considers Federal primers potentially unsafe, so I assume something else), new Starline brass.

P-32 # 1 - 771 fps, SD 45.7, FPE 79.1, ES 142. (This should get about 1000 fps out of an unspecified barrel (4"?) I would expect a good 850 from a P-32.)

At this point, I pretty much put the 60 gr XTP bullet on the back burner. It's the only 60 gr JHP available, and it didn't look like I was going to get what I was aiming for, namely 60 gr JHP Cor-Bon like performance:

P-32 #1 - 971 fps, ES 39, FPE 125.5. Only two rounds.
P-32 #2 - 1009 fps, ES 37, FPE 135.5. Only three rounds. Sorry, I don't have enough of this ammo to do good statistics.

Is propelling a 60 gr XTP at 975 fps from a Kel-Tec P-32 too much to ask?

I discovered that P-32 #2 is significantly more accurate than #1. It is now the one I carry, and #1 is a backup. (And I thought it was all just me...)

buzzsaw
 

·
Grand Poobah
Joined
·
1,357 Posts
I have had considerable success with Shooters World Auto Pistol powder in the .32 ACP/7.65 Browning. A source for Shooters World powder is Midsouth Shooters Supply. So far, I have been using the Prvi Partizan (PPU) 71 gr JHP bullet, obtained from Graf's: https://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/product/productId/29124
I load these to an overall length of 0.968-0.970". I have measured PPU's ammo and the OAL ranges from 0.965 to 0.970 inches. (I use a Hornady comparator that measures to a point on the ogive, instead of the nose, in an attempt to be more consistent. With the comparator, the PPU ammo ranges from 0.746 to 0.753 inches. I shoot for 0.750" on the comparator.) These bullets have a crimping groove, and I use it, with a firm taper crimp. Cases are Sellier & Bellot, primers are Sellier & Bellot 4,4 SP Boxer Primers. This bullet will drop freely into properly sized American brass, so I use European brass with it.

My results are at the top of the table, and data from commercial ammo is at the bottom for reference. The published velocities are from Lovex for D036 powder and a 73 gr FMJ out of a 3.8" barrel, or from the ammo manufacturer. These are 10-round strings unless noted.
32acp summary nov 2019.jpg

The Shooters World Auto Pistol powder is apparently the same powder as Lovex D036, made in the Czech Republic by Explosia. The American Shooters World loading manual does not include any data for .32 ACP, however, the Lovex loading manual does. It can be found at: https://explosia.cz/app/uploads/2019/07/EXPLOSIA_reloading2019_en_new.pdf. This European data I am using uses CIP specifications. 4.4 grains is their max load for this. It is interesting to compare the Lovex manual to the Shooters World manual for calibers that are in both. This powder meters very consistently from my powder measures. The granules are spherical and tiny.

Looking at my data for Fiocchi 73 gr out of my P-32s makes me wonder if it is quite temperature sensitive. I will have to be more consistent about recording the temperature.

The PPU factory ammo does not expand well in some tests I read elsewhere on this forum, but their loadings are mild. I wish I had a place to do some gel testing of my loads of their bullet. A new project will be to see what I can do with this powder and the 60 gr XTP bullet. Generally, one can use charges meant for a heavier bullet with a lighter bullet. However, the XTP is a bit larger (0.311") diameter than the PPU bullet (0.308"), which would tend to raise pressures.

buzzsaw
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
128 Posts
If you like that Hornady 60 grain XTP, might want to order some quickly... it's disappeared from their 2020 Product Catalog. Which means it might disappear from the Fiocchi ammo line as well.
 

·
Grand Poobah
Joined
·
1,357 Posts
If you like that Hornady 60 grain XTP, might want to order some quickly... it's disappeared from their 2020 Product Catalog. Which means it might disappear from the Fiocchi ammo line as well.
Where did you find the 2020 catalog? I went to Hornady's site and all they have is the 2019 catalog, which still has it. I'm not particularly fond of 60 gr .32 acp hollowpoint bullets, but the XTP is probably the best of it's kind available, though I wish it were 72 grains. By the way, the XTP has changed diameter through the years. I bought a box of old stock at a local gun shop Saturday, and they are labeled as .312" and they do indeed measure 0.001" more than the newer ones labeled .311".

The Fiocchi APHP Shooting Dynamics does not have an XTP bullet anymore. What I bought from SGAmmo a couple of weeks ago, has the old Semi-Jacketed Hollow point. Unfortunately, it doesn't have the velocity of that old speed demon (1115 fps from my Beretta) see below. The Extrema I bought at the same time still has an XTP. I was wondering if Fiocchi's use of the XTP in the APHP might have been because of non-availability of the SJHP, for whatever reason. I chronographed these recent acquisitions: From my Beretta, the APHP ran 995 fps, SD=44, ES=155 and the Extrema ran 1009 fps, SD=19, ES=67. This is more like it. The Extrema is supposed to be better than Shooting Dynamics. Fiocchi claims 1000 fps for the Extrema, and 1100 for the APHP in their catalog. The APHP specs do not agree with my results, but the Extrema is bang on.

Incidentally, SGAmmo had some Cor-Bon, so I replenished my stocks of that round. I hope it is what it used to be, but haven't chronographed it yet. I don't know what hollow point bullet they use. It's not an XTP.

I also have loaded some XTPs recently over some of the Shooters World Auto Pistol powder with very promising results-once I figured out how to seat an XTP at 0.945" and have tight bullets. I was belling it too much, which apparently stretches the case further down than I thought it would, and I had insufficient neck tension. Now, I bell the case just enough to barely get the bullet started. Loadings of this bullet over Auto Pistol charges ranging from 4.2 grains to 4.6 grains gave velocities of 1036 fps SD=29 ES=75 to 1165 fps SD=16 ES=53, from my Beretta. These are 10-round averages. This corresponds to "muzzle" energies of 142.9 to 180.6 fpe. Now, that's cooking with gas! The hotter I loaded these, the better the SDs and ESs. ***NOTE: These loads are beyond the books. 4.4 grains is a maximum charge of this powder with a 73 gr FMJ bullet.***

I ordered 1100 XTP bullets over the weekend (all that particular vendor had). Of course, Hornady might continue making them for their own ammunition, and sell them to other manufacturers. Speer makes a .32 ACP 60 grain Gold Dot for their load, but does not sell it to the public. I would rather not have to resort to buying commercial ammo, dismantling it, and reassembling it to my specifications. If I did, I would check out Magtech's .32acp, since they have 65 and 71 grain JHPs that might be enough better than PPU's to justify this. Of course, there's the Rim Rock 75 gr lead flat-nose bullet. I've got some nice loads using it.

I have quite a bit more data and measurements of the various Fiocchi rounds, but am extremely busy right now, and don't have time to properly analyze it and make a good report, but I will when I get the chance. I hope Hornady isn't really discontinuing the 60 grain XTP. I have heard that the bullet is popular among bullseye shooters, who load it for their Pardini target pistols. Hornady could start making a 60 grain HAP bullet for this purpose. The bullseye folks don't care about self-defense suitable terminal ballistics, they just want nice, high-scoring holes in paper. What I would really like to see Hornady make as a component, is an XTP or FTX at about 72 grains for the .32 ACP.

buzzsaw
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
128 Posts
Take a look, it's gone:https://www.hornady.com/bullets/handgun/#!/

These bullet/ammo companies have figured out it's more profitable to sell high-priced ammunition than bullets to reloaders. Note that few of the latest self-defense type bullets of the past 10 years have been released to handloaders, and Hornady is the worst in this regard: no critical defense or critical duty. Meanwhile, in some calibres you can't even find the ammo they advertise (eg. .32 H&R Mag). Federal no HST bullets, Winchester no SXT, Remington has stopped selling the BJHP and golden saber bullets.
 

·
Grand Poobah
Joined
·
1,357 Posts
Take a look, it's gone:https://www.hornady.com/bullets/handgun/#!/

These bullet/ammo companies have figured out it's more profitable to sell high-priced ammunition than bullets to reloaders. Note that few of the latest self-defense type bullets of the past 10 years have been released to handloaders, and Hornady is the worst in this regard: no critical defense or critical duty. Meanwhile, in some calibres you can't even find the ammo they advertise (eg. .32 H&R Mag). Federal no HST bullets, Winchester no SXT, Remington has stopped selling the BJHP and golden saber bullets.
You're right. I searched for the part number on the website and it wasn't there. The loaded ammo using the bullet still is. XTP bullets for other calibers still are listed. It may just be the .32 acp. Few people load it, so there's little choice of components, and paltry data, which discourages more handloaders from taking it up. There's that thing about using handloads for self defense. Then there's the lousy reputation for terminal ballistics of expanding projectiles in the caliber. The bullseye shooters using the XTP in 32 acp target pistols are a subset of a small group. There may not be enough of a market to justify making the bullet.

There are only a few guns still made in the caliber. Beretta has discontinued both the Tomcat and the 81. As far as I know, that leaves Kel-Tec and North American as the only sources for new, quality .32 acp guns. We may be watching the .32 acp become obsolete before our eyes.:(

buzzsaw
 

·
Grand Poobah
Joined
·
1,357 Posts
Observations about Fiocchi 7.65 Browning/.32 ACP Hollow points. These are measurements that I have made on various Fiocchi .32 acp/7.65 Browning loads with hollowpoint projectiles.

Old purple box: Semi-Jacketed Hollow Point SJHP 60 gr (UPC code: 762344 001524) Made in Italy. Brass case, Headstamp: G.F.L. 7.65 mm.
Chron Data: Kel Tec P-32 1004 fps; Beretta 81FS 1115 fps
OAL: (in.) 0.927, 0.925, 0.925, 0.927, 0.926
Remarks: The Old Good Stuff, as far as velocity is concerned. Does not say “32APHP” on the box. Golden Loki’s testing indicates that the bullet does not expand from a P-32.

Old Blue box with white pinstripes: Extrema Pistol X.T.P. “32XTP” “60 Grs. XTPHP” (UPC code: 762344 028781) Made in Italy. Nickel-plated case, Headstamp: F.O.A. 32 AUTO.
Chron Data: Beretta 81FS 805 fps extreme spread 114 fps (rejected one round that had light recoil and report vel= 679.5 fps ES would be 192 fps if included)
OAL: (in.) 0.925, 0.928, 0.927, 0.927, 0.926
Remarks: I believe something is wrong with this particular lot or box of ammo.

Red box: Classic Line SJHP 60 grs (UPC code: 762344 03410) Made in Italy. Brass case, Headstamp: G.F.L. 7.65 mm.
Chron Data: Beretta 81FS 1048 fps
OAL: (in.) 0.921, 0.922, 0.920, 0.917, 0.921
Remarks: Cartridge looks like the ones from the old purple box, but are loaded about 67 fps slower.

Old Blue box Pistol Shooting Dynamics 32APHP 60 grs JHP (UPC code: 762344 001524) Loaded in the USA. Brass case, Headstamp: G.F.L. 7.65 mm.
Chron Data: Kel Tec P-32 894 fps; Beretta 81FS 1016 fps
OAL: (in.) 0.950, 0.950, 0.947, 0.945, 0.942
Remarks: Looks like XTP, but doesn’t say it is.

New Blue box Pistol Shooting Dynamics 32APHP 60 gr SJHP (UPC code: 762344 001524) Made in Italy. Brass case, Headstamp: G.F.L. 7.65 mm.
Chron Data: Beretta 81FS 995 fps
OAL: (in.)0.924, 0.925, 0.927, 0.929, 0.928
Remarks: Probably the same load as the Red box Classic Line above. Temperature was 60 F here vs 84 F when the red box was tested. Maybe the powder is temperature sensitive. Listed at 1100 fps in Fiocchi literature, but I’ve never seen it in any recent stuff.

New Blue box Pistol Extrema XTP Line 32XTP 60 GRS. XTP JHP (UPC code:762344 028781) Loaded in the USA. Brass case, Headstamp: G.F.L. 7.65 mm.
Chron Data: Beretta 81FS 1009 fps.
OAL: (in.)0.952, 0.950, 0.948, 0.946, 0.945
Remarks: Brass case. Performance much better than the old box of same. Velocity close to spec, even though temperature was 60 F.

Conclusions and conjectures. Fiocchi now appears to use the XTP bullet for rounds loaded in the USA. Recent production with this bullet is loaded long enough to avoid rimlock. The XTP used by Fiocchi is slightly smaller in diameter than that sold to reloaders (0.311"). Fiocchi’s XTPs measure 0.308” at the case mouth. This is probably to fit European brass, which Fiocchi uses, even if the ammo is loaded here. It looks like Fiocchi resizes them, or has Hornady make a custom size. Hornady’s also measure 0.308”, with a couple as small as 0.307”. It’s possible that I am not measuring the bearing surface of the bullet, since Hornady’s OAL is only 0.907” and the ogive starts very close to the case mouth. Hornady case mouth dia: 0.334: Fiocchi: 0.335” The Extrema performs like I would expect it to.

The SJHP bullet is probably made in Europe, if not in Italy. This bullet has a crimping cannelure and Fiocchi still loads it in the 0.920s, meaning rimlock is a possibility. It’s likely cheaper to buy XTPs from Hornady in Nebraska and ship them to their plant in Missouri, than it is to ship the SJHP bullets from Europe to load the ammo here. The powder in the Shooting Dynamics line is more temperature sensitive than that used in Extrema. Shooting dynamics might reach 1100 fps if it is hot enough when I test them. Fiocchi doesn’t list the temperature.

buzzsaw
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
128 Posts
Interesting info. I'm going to say IMHO it's more conjecture than conclusion, however.

IMG_5908 (1).jpg
IMG_5907 (1).jpg
IMG_5909 (1).jpg


I pulled one of these rounds. The cartridge contained 2.7 grains of flake propellant which appears very similar to Alliant Bullseye. Maximum "book" load from the Alliant website for the 60 grain Speer GDHP (plated construction) is 2.6 grains of Bullseye, so this in not far from the mark. NOT saying this is indeed Bullseye, but given the amount of this ammo manufactured, using bulk Bullseye for this application would not be unreasonable. The velocity data for Bullseye is comparable with the factory load.

IMG_5896.jpg
IMG_5897.jpg


The pulled Fiocchi bullet appeared identical to a Hornady 60 grain XTP.

IMG_5904.jpg

(l-r: Pulled Fiocchi bullet, Hornady 60 grain XTP, loaded round Fiocchi 32APHP)

Note the section of the pulled bullet that was contained within the case is noticeably marked from compression. As part of assembly, the bullet is held in place with a compression fit and most likely a taper crimp.

IMG_5902.jpg


Measured a few Hornady #32010 ".32 Caliber" .311 60 grain XTP bullets. Here was the usual result:

IMG_5899.jpg


The diameter varied between 0.310 and 0.3115, the most common being .3105. Given the nature of these bullets, that is not an abnmormal variation. It's not match quality and the projectiles are quite short.

Weight of the Hornady component bullets was typically 59.9 grains, with variation up to 60.5 grains.

Measured the pulled Fiocchi HP bullet from the 32APHP round, ABOVE the compressed section and got the same result 0.3105. Measured it below the casemouth line within the compressed section and got this result:

IMG_5901.jpg


The weight of this bullet was exactly the same as the typical Hornady component bullet, 59.9 grains.

Given the normal variations in diameter and weight of the virgin Hornady factory component bullets, IMHO these results show no special characteristics - custom diameter, etc - of the Fiocchi loaded Hornady 60 grain XTP bullet in the lot of 32APHP ammo that I have been using, as compared to the regular Hornady production.

Environmental Impact Statement: No ammo was wasted in the production of this post. The pulled bullet was safety reloaded with the factory powder and projectile, and ready to serve it's intended purpose: shooting!
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,410 Posts
Santa brought me a chrono this year. The old P32 was one of the beta guns to figure out how to use it. Thus, I did not think to determine if the severe ES on the Fiocchi was due to a fluke single round being far lower or not. I'll retest it at some point.

32:45 2.jpeg
 

·
Grand Poobah
Joined
·
1,357 Posts
KuduKing, my measurements of loose XTP bullets agree with yours. I measured the loaded bullets without pulling them. I have read that there is a bit of springiness to jacketed bullets, so that may be the source of the discrepancy.

Spence, spurious readings do seem to be pretty common when chronographing .32 acp out of short-barreled guns. Unburned powder is likely the culprit. I noticed that you had your chronograph at 5 yards. That will help. After a session, I frequently find powder granules on the rail separating the sensors, so the first sensor could be seeing them, giving an erroneous start time. If debris outruns the bullet and gets picked up by the first sensor, but not by the second, but the bullet gets seen by the second sensor but not the first, it will register as a low velocity.

buzzsaw
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,410 Posts
Spence, spurious readings do seem to be pretty common when chronographing .32 acp out of short-barreled guns. Unburned powder is likely the culprit. I noticed that you had your chronograph at 5 yards. That will help. After a session, I frequently find powder granules on the rail separating the sensors, so the first sensor could be seeing them, giving an erroneous start time. If debris outruns the bullet and gets picked up by the first sensor, but not by the second, but the bullet gets seen by the second sensor but not the first, it will register as a low velocity.

buzzsaw
Well, you might convince me to go "full Paul Harrel" and start running the chronograph a bit further at 7 yards. I do not believe there to be enough difference from the muzzle to 20' to be that noticeable, and I'd rather do that than have stuff mess with the chronograph. Which, reading the manual on it and it says a little further out is generally better, I figured if 10' was good, 15 is better.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3 Posts
Slight thread necro, but it was a nice evening and I've been sitting on ammo to test.
One of my curiosities was to compare 32 ACP with 380 ACP, hence the data on the last string. I suspected that the only ballistic performance differences in "typical" guns was bullet weight. My (extremely limited) testing seems to support this. Obviously useful JHPs actually exist for 380, which I am purposely ignoring for now. O/T, but the chrono was out;)

I believe this covers most common commercially available ammo in the US. The first string overlaps with previous data as a point of comparison.
I always chrono near the maximum distance allowed by the cables (15-20 feet).
Reloading data put on hold probably until after the shooting season. I had to finish up loading other calibers and didn't get around to it.

CED Data Collector - 5/14/20
(f = flyers, (ED) = edited shots)
Feet Per Second
SD N-1
Temp 65F

Kel-Tec P32
Fiocchi 32AP
String 1
1) 866.1 45.3
2) 852 31.2
3) 559.6 -261.2 f
4) 844.5 23.7
5) 899.5 78.7
6) 827.1 6.3
7) 838.3 17.5
8) 839.1 18.3
9) 860.9 40.1

High: 899.5
Low: 559.6
E.S.: 339.9
Ave.: 820.8
S.D.: 100.2
95%: 81.7

Sellier & Bellot
String 2
1) 858.7 -27.9
2) 891.3 4.7
3) 871.4 -15.2
4) 874.4 -12.2
5) 886.6 0
6) 968.2 81.6 f
7) 879.7 -6.9
8) 858.6 -28
9) 866.9 -19.7
10) 909.7 23.1

High: 968.2
Low: 858.6
E.S.: 109.6
Ave.: 886.6
S.D.: 32.6
95%: 24.6

Geco 73gr
String 3
1) 793.7 -28.1
2) 797.3 -24.5
3) 807.8 -14
4) 810.7 -11.1
5) 958.2 136.4 f
6) 796.3 -25.5
7) 806.1 -15.7
8) 804.3 -17.5


High: 958.2
Low: 793.7
E.S.: 164.5
Ave.: 821.8
S.D.: 55.4
95%: 49.5


Beretta 81
Geco 73gr
String 4

1) 896.1 -15.3
2) 907.4 -4
3) 915.1 3.7
4) 911.9 0.5
5) 922.9 11.5
6) 910.5 -0.9
7) 894.3 -17.1
8) 926.3 14.9
9) 914.1 2.7
10) 915.2 3.8

High: 926.3
Low: 894.3
E.S.: 32
Ave.: 911.4
S.D.: 10.2
95%: 7.7

Kel-Tec P32
Armscor 71gr
String 5

1) 735.5 -60.6
2) 755.8 -40.3
3) 729.2 -66.9
4) 707.9 -88.2
5) 817.7 21.6
6) 792.3 -3.8
7) 965.7 169.6
8) 864.5 68.4

High: 965.7
Low: 707.9
E.S.: 257.8
Ave.: 796.1
S.D.: 85.8
95%: 76.7

Aguila 71gr
String 6

1) 809.7 -122.2
2) 889.4 -42.5
3) 1004 72.1
4) 947.4 15.5
5) 907.9 -24
6) 944.6 12.7
7) 871.1 -60.8
8) 1033 101.1
9) 917.9 -14
10) 1051 119.1
11) 891.5 -40.4
12) 980.7 48.8
13) 866 -65.9

High: 1051
Low: 809.7
E.S.: 241.3
Ave.: 931.9
S.D.: 70.5
95%: 44.3


PMC 32A
String 7

1) 757.8 -42.7
2) 776.1 -24.4
3) 745.6 -54.9
4) 843 42.5
5) 848.1 47.6
6) 729.5 -71
7) 740.2 -60.3
8) 877.5 77
9) 751.3 -49.2
10) 936.2 135.7

High: 936.2
Low: 729.5
E.S.: 206.7
Ave.: 800.5
S.D.: 70.7
95%: 53.3


S&W Bodyguard 380
Sig Sauer E380B1 100gr FMJ
String 8

1) 852.9 -32.4
2) 899.7 14.4
3) 879.1 -6.2
4) 864.6 -20.7
5) 954.1 68.8 f
6) 911.3 26
7) 861.1 -24.2
8) 877 -8.3
9) 865 -20.3
10) 870.6 -14.7
11) 898.8 13.5
12) 889.2 3.9


High: 954.1
Low: 852.9
E.S.: 101.2
Ave.: 885.3
S.D.: 28
95%: 18.6
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
750 Posts
Slight thread necro, but it was a nice evening and I've been sitting on ammo to test.
One of my curiosities was to compare 32 ACP with 380 ACP, hence the data on the last string. I suspected that the only ballistic performance differences in "typical" guns was bullet weight. My (extremely limited) testing seems to support this. Obviously useful JHPs actually exist for 380, which I am purposely ignoring for now. O/T, but the chrono was out;)

I believe this covers most common commercially available ammo in the US. The first string overlaps with previous data as a point of comparison.
I always chrono near the maximum distance allowed by the cables (15-20 feet).
Reloading data put on hold probably until after the shooting season. I had to finish up loading other calibers and didn't get around to it.
You can use lighter *115 grain* .355 *9x19* loadings in your .380 *9x17* make sure to adjust your oal appropriately and watch pressures *start low, work your way up watch obvious pressure signs in spent cases*

I no longer use any .380, and could not locate my load data for the older stuff, apologies.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
26 Posts
I found some .32ACP brass for sale at Blueridge Brass. Great price. 10 cents a brass, 8$ shipping. 10% off if you subscribe to their newsletter, free shipping for $100min. I bought 1500 for $135 total. Free shipping, 10% off, and no tax to Texas. What a relief. I was exhausting my supply of Geco at the range. https://blueridgebrass.com/product/32-auto-acp-polished-once-fired-brass/?attribute_pa_quantity=500

Thats 9 cents a brass to my dooor. I will report on the quality of the brass when is arrives.
 
1 - 20 of 23 Posts
Top