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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I remember reading at one time here when the "Slide Issue" first surfaced that Kel-Tec reported a 3-5% failure rate during this time. I also remember that at that time it was stated that they normally have a 1-2% failure rate.

To me that is quite a success story. "normally" experiencing a problem with 500-1000 units out of 50,000 is a SUCCESSFUL VENTURE. My company builds a very high end, high dollar product. We build approx 42-48 of these a year. With QC and Supervisors and Lead Personall checking all throughout the build processs, we still experience failures..items that need to be worked on to operate correctly.

3-5% or 1500-2500 slides out of 50,000 until the problem was determined and corrected is Not Out of the Norm. In a production Machine Shop boring 1000+ holes per shift is done every day.

I am just glad that they (KT) realised there was a problem and worked until it was figured out. I expect that more of these guns with bad slides will show up from time to time as they get shot more.

As long as they fix them, no problem.


BY The Way, when shopping for a new carry gun I mentioned to a dealer about the slide failure issue. He asked how many were having a problem. When I repiled about 3-5%.... He broke out laughing and said "Is that IT? What your talking 30-50 guns per 1000? I wouldn't worry about it much if I were you..and if you would by chance get a bad one So What? they'll replace it anyway!" This particular dealer had given me nothing but good advise, not trying to sell me on any one gun but trying to help me find what gun(s) would work the best for me.


Lets put this issue to rest.


Fred....whose going out to shoot 100 more RDs through his P-3AT.
 

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Wow your kidding right? I am an aerospace machinist and in a machine shop that is unacceptable. I make commercial jet engine parts.. 3-5% failure you do the math.

We also make military parts more specifically tank drive shafts. 3-5% failure in combat you do the math.

Years ago I worked at a company that made GM and Ford front end suspension parts. Through Ford Q1 we were allowed 1 part per million. 3-5% front end failures in auto manufacturing you do the math.

What is your product that at a rate of 42-48 units a year you have a failure of 5%. You must sell to the government.

What Kel-Tec is doing is sloppy machine work. There are manufacturing ways to bring defects to less than .5%
 

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Deadeye said:
3-5% or 1500-2500 slides out of 50,000 until the problem was determined and corrected is Not Out of the Norm.
The thing everyone keeps overlooking is, this is only the 3-5% returned for repair.

The vast majority of this production is probably quitely resting in someones sock drawer, and hasn't even been shot yet!


rcmodel
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
vindex1963 said:
Wow your kidding right? I am an aerospace machinist and in a machine shop that is unacceptable.  I make commercial jet engine parts.. 3-5% failure you do the math.

We also make military parts more specifically tank drive shafts. 3-5% failure in combat you do the math.

Years ago I worked at a company that made GM and Ford front end suspension parts. Through Ford Q1 we were allowed 1 part per million. 3-5% front end failures in auto manufacturing you do the math.

What is your product that at a rate of 42-48 units a year you have a failure of 5%. You must sell to the government.

What Kel-Tec is doing is sloppy machine work. There are manufacturing ways to bring defects to less than .5%  
So you are telling me that in your machine shop no one has ever set up a machine incorrectly and did several units before this was discovered?

Or are you telling me that when a new spec is delivered to you and you build the part to the spec, that in the near future it is discovered that someone, somewhere miscalculated something and what you have just finished building (although done correctly by the spec) will not work as desired?

The 2Gen guns, as I understand, started with the J0xxx series. It would appear to me that a design was planned that needed to be modified. This is not rare on a new model.

The parts of which you discibe that you make, I am assuming, that this is a part that you have been making for quite some time. In every new project there is some R&D and with small companies quite often it is the feedback from their employees and customers that provide the needed changes.

And no, we do not make stuff for the government. We do however make a unit for a very few select high end buyers that can afford 1.5 million or more per unit. Their tastes and expectations demand quality, reliable products and we are considered the best in the market. I did not say that the individual units fail 5% of the time, but that componets can and do fail, especially with a new model until the bugs are figured out.

In any case I feel no more need to discuss this issue. Happy shooting.
 

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Deadeye said:
So you are telling me that in your machine shop no one has ever set up a machine incorrectly and did several units before this was discovered?
In any case I feel no more need to discuss this issue. Happy shooting.
We do first articles so the answer is no. The first part is "bought off" by inspection and the following parts are documented. Worst case is the first part is bad. In process inspection prevents continuing the run if there is a problem in the middle of the run. There are simple forms of documentation that holds the machine operator responsible to the part they are running. I wish what I did was as easy as drilling a hole.
"I feel no more need to discuss this issue" You don't have to get snippy I was stating my opinion that is based on 22 years experience and I didn't mean to make you mad.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
I'm not mad and didn't mean for my last line to come over as snippy. Its just that this issue seems to have analised to death and until KT figured out a fix (which they seem to have done) the "what is causing this" question was relivant.

KT seems to be to me a small company. From my own experiences working for and with small companies it is not uncommon for parts to be made in advance before the final assembly is done. By the time the operator has gone on to whatever other project they have been assigned to, the first item is now starting to be assembled. It is usually at this time the "problem" is discovered, well after the parts have been made. With large firms their standards usually are quite different. There is lots of R&D done before the design is ever built and all the bugs worked out, although some still arise latter. Smaller firms most often do not have the staff and/or resources to do this.

Thank you for your imput. I'm quite sure that you do have more experience in the fine workings of the machinst world than I do. To be honest, sometimes it amazes me what a good machinest can do with a piece of metal.

The reason I felt no more need to discuss this issue is that it seems KT has solved it.

Anyways I enjoy the reading and knowledge I have learned from this board and am not wishing to offend anyone. If I have done that sorry.

Happy Shooting :)
 

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My P3 should be back in a week or so, I'll let you know the results of if they "fixed it" or not.

*wondering if he'll still have this position if his spring comes shooting out the front of his gun*

Happy shooting. :)
 

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3-5% is an off the scale high number of defects - Maybe you mean .3 - .5 %.

How can anyone stay in business if 1 out of every 20 made is a defect?

Course its only a self defense gun - so its no big deal if it fails - you can always just tell the guy that is trying to kill you to wait until you get your gun repaired under its "lifetime" warranty.
 

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z71bill said:
How can anyone stay in business if 1 out of every 20 made is a defect?
Gee, I dunno.  How could they be the number one U.S. manufaturer for 32 and 380 acp handgunds if they are on th brink of disaster as you infer?
This would seem to contradict what you imply:

The P32:

2004  -  #2 in U.S. 32 cal production only to Baretta.

2005  -  #1 in U.S. 32 cal production.


The P3AT:


2004  -  #1 in U.S.  380 acp production.

2005  -  #1 in U.S. 380 acp production


P11 production ain't too shabby either.  Kel-tec comes in a respectable #4,
surpassed only by Ruger, Baretta and Hi-Point:

2004  -  9,964  

2005  -  9,986



alamo said:
I found the 2005 figures on the ATF website.  They must have come out recently.  Here's a summary:


P-32  
                  P-3AT        

10,793                      39,784           2005
14,882                      34,969           2004
21,545                      16,269           2003 *

NAA Guardian .32         .380

  434                        1,449             2005
1,032                           410             2004
1,863                        1,683             2003


Seecamp  .32              .380


1,047                            349             2005
1,032                            410             2004
1,463                                4             2003

Here are the reports:

http://www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/stats/index.htm

* P-3ATs first started shipping around 6/03.
To hear you tell it, they are going to go out of business any day now.  But we all know you could do much better than those abismal figures above.  
By comparison, their only competitors' numbers are a joke.

No one here really knows their return rate.  I heard 2% a while back.  Even if it is higher at times, that doesn't mean that the gun didn't fire.  They get returned for a lot of minor issues as well.  

z71bill said:
3 - you can always just tell the guy that is trying to kill you to wait until you get your gun repaired under its "lifetime" warranty.    
Best sell yours and move on then before the the sky falls.   :-/


 
 

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Let me see if I've got this right,
The potential for people to be robbed, raped, murdered or mugged because they put their trust into a product that Kel-Tec knows is defective seems OK to you?  If this was any other industry there would be massive recalls. Consider the pet food industry and the spill over into our food chain. There are people at this web site who are working on their third and fourth slide and the issue still exists. On every page that you read some one who has a new problem to report. Unacceptable by any standard.
G.R.
 

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Didn't know Keltec has "fixed" the problem, or am I just slow :eek:
 

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fmack said:
Sure. No big deal. I'm on my fourth slide since I bought this gun.

4th slide??? see, screw that mess!! thats just rediculous on kt's part. yeah they are inexpensive guns and kudos to kt for fixing all problems for free but you shouldnt have to keep sending it back again and again just to turn around and get the same damn problem..
 

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gunney_rabbit said:
Let me see if I've got this right,
The potential for people to be robbed, raped, murdered or mugged because they put their trust into a product that Kel-Tec knows is defective seems OK to you?  If this was any other industry there would be massive recalls. Consider the pet food industry and the spill over into our food chain. There are people at this web site who are working on their third and fourth slide and the issue still exists. On every page that you read some one who has a new problem to report. Unacceptable by any standard.
G.R.

agreed! this is why i am leaning towards the p32 bc of less "issues" with the guns so far compared to the p3AT... kel tec is a good company and they stand behind their products unlike other manufactuers BUT this whole p3AT slide thing is a little much... everyday there are posts about the slide issue..
 
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Deadeye said:
until KT figured out a fix (which they seem to have done) the "what is causing this" question was relivant.....
The reason I felt no more need to discuss this issue is that it seems KT has solved it....
STRIKER said:
Didn't know Keltec has "fixed" the problem, or am I just slow :eek:

Deadeye-------or any one else for that matter:

What indications have you seen that KT has fixed this issue? I have not even seen real evidence that they have acknowledged a problem, much less actually FIXED one.

Seems to me that if they wanted to, KelTec could simply post a notice on the Keltec Website letting its die hard fans know what is going on.

I say DIE HARD fan because I am one……..but after not being able to shoot my gun for over two weeks now (this is the second time since I bought it this spring that it has been down). I am more willing to go quietly into that sweet night. If not for the novelty and my desire to tweak a cheap lil gun, I would have tied it to a trot line by now.

Maybe I need to accept it for what it is, a cheap lil gun.

Maybe tomorrow I will feel differently.
 
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