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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Just got this SAF email:

NINTH CIRCUIT VACATES INJUNCTION IN 3-D PRINTING CASE, TELLS LOWER COURT TO DISMISS
The Second Amendment Foundation is applauding the Ninth U.S. District Court of Appeals for its decision to vacate an injunction obtained earlier in a lawsuit filed by 22 state attorneys general and the Attorney General for the District of Columbia, against an agreement between the State and Commerce departments and SAF and Defense Distributed allowing them to post data relating to 3-D printing of firearms on the Internet. The case is known as State of Washington v. U.S. Department of State.​
“This is a humongous loss for anti-gun Democrat State Attorneys General,” said SAF founder and Executive Vice President Alan M. Gottlieb. “They consistently attack Second Amendment rights any way they can.​
“This legal debacle was led by Washington Attorney General Bob Ferguson,” he continued, “who became famous for suing the Trump administration in a series of partisan legal actions that cost taxpayers millions of dollars.​
“SAF and Defense Distributed look forward to sharing technical firearms information with millions of interested people on the Internet,” Gottlieb added.​
The Ninth Circuit panel remanded the case back to the district court with instructions to dismiss.​
“I want to thank the National Shooting Sports Foundation for intervening at the Appeals Court level,” Gottlieb said. “Obviously, the intent of the lawsuit was to void the agreement State had with SAF and Defense Distributed via a final rule that would remove 3-D printed guns and files from the U.S. Munitions list regulated by the International Traffic in Arms Regulations (ITAR). SAF and Defense Distributed were not named in the lawsuit to avoid this becoming a First Amendment case. As interested parties, we tried to get the trial judge to realize this was about our First Amendment rights to exercise our Second Amendment rights, because we were convinced we would have won on that basis.”​
Writing for the majority, Circuit Judge Ryan D. Nelson noted, “Because both the DOS and Commerce Final Rules are unreviewable, the States have not demonstrated the requisite likelihood of success on the merits…Congress expressly barred judicial review of designations and undesignations of defense articles under the Control Act and of any functions exercised under the Reform Act. Accordingly, the district court erred in reviewing the DOS and Commerce Final Rules, and its injunction is therefore contrary to law.”​

Well, there you have it. Allan Gottlieb may be one of the most important players in the gun rights movement in all U.S. history.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
 

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I would love for anyone to tell me a good legal use for a 3D printed firearm. I can see the use of accessories made with a 3D printer, but a whole plastic weapon?
 

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I would love for anyone to tell me a good legal use for a 3D printed firearm. I can see the use of accessories made with a 3D printer, but a whole plastic weapon?
I don’t think the guns are entirely plastic. Use.....because someone is a do it yourselfer a tinkerer, the kid that took his dad’s alarm clock apart to see what makes it tick. What use is a hot rod with a big block Chevy and a blower that can exceed any speed limit in first gear?
Don’t fall into the trick bag of justifying particular guns, cars, motorcycles or dogs. If someone misuses their tools, guns, cars or animals in a criminal manner deal with the man not the item.
 

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FDM printed firearms WILL always fail at some point.
Injection molding provides 1 evenly strengthened product, FDM printers are layered and if not fully bonded (which usually throws things out of spec via curing) at some point layer adhesion breaks down and a catastrophic failure (rendering the firearm useless) occurs, sometimes involving injury.
I have 80% polymer and a 3d. The 3d makes a nice statue.

Though I do agree with TZComp, the accessories come out nice.
 
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FDM printed firearms WILL always fail at some point.
Injection molding provides 1 evenly strengthened product, FDM printers are layered and if not fully bonded (which usually throws things out of spec via curing) at some point layer adhesion breaks down and a catastrophic failure (rendering the firearm useless) occurs, sometimes involving injury.
I have 80% polymer and a 3d. The 3d makes a nice statue.

Though I do agree with TZComp, the accessories come out nice.
I guess as art, they would have some value. I just remember the plastic, non-detectable single shot pistols favored by hijackers and prisoners and, I suppose, assassins.
 

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I guess as art, they would have some value. I just remember the plastic, non-detectable single shot pistols favored by hijackers and prisoners and, I suppose, assassins.
The 80% is a G17, so for ****s and giggles I decided to print one too.
No way I would have attempted a live test fire with it. It sits on a shelf (after being made inoperable).
 

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I'm guessing this was more freedom of speech thing and what could come down the pike if they lost. No drawings disseminated? Who knows where it could stop? But I'm not a lawyer and never played one on TV.

Yeah, I think they're useless too. But who knows what print technology lies in the future?
 

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I guess as art, they would have some value. I just remember the plastic, non-detectable single shot pistols favored by hijackers and prisoners and, I suppose, assassins.
You’ve been paying too much attention to Sara Brady and Hollywood. Just for chuckles let’s pretend such guns are the favorite weapon of assassins, prisoners and hijackers. Do you really think making Kevin the gun nerd in Wisconsin a criminal for his hobby will have any impact on their activities?
 

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You’ve been paying too much attention to Sara Brady and Hollywood. Just for chuckles let’s pretend such guns are the favorite weapon of assassins, prisoners and hijackers. Do you really think making Kevin the gun nerd in Wisconsin a criminal for his hobby will have any impact on their activities?
Yeah, and my hobby could be enriching uranium and making a thermonuclear bomb. They shouldn't step on my rights about that, either.
By the way, I pay zero attention to Brady and/or Hollywood and don't know or care about their opinions. I just know what is worthless info that probably shouldn't be shared or the morons will hurt themselves attempting to fire a 3D printed weapon.
 

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I would love for anyone to tell me a good legal use for a 3D printed firearm. I can see the use of accessories made with a 3D printer, but a whole plastic weapon?
R&D. A full plastic gun could be fired, esp for a light cartridge like .22. It would need to be excessively thick at the explosion, but if you wrap enough of anything around something it will eventually be strong enough. A bit of work but you could do a proof of concept. A thick revolver design maybe at first? And you can always put a steel sleeve in it too.
3d printing also can print metal, it just costs a bit more so only a very dedicated criminal (eg, organized) would do so. A wealthy hobby gunsmith though may indulge esp if he had one for his business anyway.
Then there are the grey legal areas that one would be very brave to try to push the issue: some places that have no legal grounds to do so use metal detectors. It is unreasonable search without a warrant, blatant disregard for the 2nd, and generally illegal across the board from some points of view, so bypassing those ... legal, not legal, hard to say, would need some good lawyering to screw around in that realm.

comes down to: are we allowed to make a gun period or not? 3d printed or milled or assembled from waterpipe (shotgun) or whatever else, is it legal or not? Its a yes or no question. After that, the HOW is irrelevant.

this whole discussion is a leftist red herring. 99.99999% of violent criminals are dirt poor, hence their desire to resort to high risk lifestyle for profit. They are poor because they tend to be idiots, poorly educated, or what have you. They do not tend to be well enough off to buy a 3d printer with todays prices and they do not tend to have the tech skills to make such a thing work (machines made from printed parts are janky, ill fitting things unless you get a top of the line printer the tolerances are poor). I am sure a few criminals will manage to print a gun and kill someone with it, ok. A few more will blow their fingers off. Most will just steal a real working gun and use that instead. Its as much a made up problem as going after semi auto rifles which are used in like 1% of crimes. Its a non-problem in the grand scheme of crime and punishment.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
I would love for anyone to tell me a good legal use for a 3D printed firearm. I can see the use of accessories made with a 3D printer, but a whole plastic weapon?
Well, first off, most of them aren't all plastic. There have been a few made in which the barrel actually was plastic. They fired low-pressure rounds (up to .380ACP, ims), and had a lifespan of a couple of rounds.

Second, the legal use of a 3D printed firearm is exactly the same as any other firearm. What a gun is made of is irrelevant to its legal use.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
I guess as art, they would have some value. I just remember the plastic, non-detectable single shot pistols favored by hijackers and prisoners and, I suppose, assassins.
You do? I remember a lot of hype and hyperbole. They even made it into a few movies. But I don't recall seeing any real "non-detectable" guns which were used by hijackers and prisoners. Can you point me to a few news stories about actual hijackers using them? Can you point me to a few news stories about prisoners using them?

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
 

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You do? I remember a lot of hype and hyperbole. They even made it into a few movies. But I don't recall seeing any real "non-detectable" guns which were used by hijackers and prisoners. Can you point me to a few news stories about actual hijackers using them? Can you point me to a few news stories about prisoners using them?

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Yeah, and my hobby could be enriching uranium and making a thermonuclear bomb. They shouldn't step on my rights about that, either.
By the way, I pay zero attention to Brady and/or Hollywood and don't know or care about their opinions. I just know what is worthless info that probably shouldn't be shared or the morons will hurt themselves attempting to fire a 3D printed weapon.
Your information is inaccurate and, at best, out of date. The technology and techniques for 3D printed guns has progressed to a point where they are actually having a serious shooting competition using nothing but these sort of guns. There are categories for 3D printed and for 80% poly. Big industry names like Michael Bane are attending.


Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
 
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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
I'm still waiting.

That story supported none of your points. There was no claim that they were "non-detectable," never mind actual evidence, nor was there any statements claiming any such alleged non-detectable guns were used by hijackers or prisoners.

They claimed that gun barrels could be 3D printed in two minutes, which is absolute road-apples.

And this really scary "factory" found a "replica assault weapon," nine whole magazines, and a machete! The horror! My local BSA camp ground is better outfitted.

So, really, honestly, can you point me to a few news stories about actual hijackers using them? Can you point me to a few news stories about prisoners using them?

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
 
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I'm still waiting.

That story supported none of your points. There was no claim that they were "non-detectable," never mind actual evidence, nor was there any statements claiming any such alleged non-detectable guns were used by hijackers or prisoners.

They claimed that gun barrels could be 3D printed in two minutes, which is absolute road-apples.

And this really scary "factory" found a "replica assault weapon," nine whole magazines, and a machete! The horror! My local BSA camp ground is better outfitted.

So, really, honestly, can you point me to a few news stories about actual hijackers using them? Can you point me to a few news stories about prisoners using them?

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
Seems this guy wants to believe he is always right and the rest of the world knows nothing.... Even former military would not be able to hold a cup to this guy....

Where did I mention any points of anything? Exactly, so you are already wrong there.

How about learning the laws of Spain regarding weapons and firearms for a start?

When they say barrels printed in 2 minutes, they most likely mean the EDM pieces to rifle a barrel made from stock pipe. After all, they are not experts in 3D printing nor gun manufacturing. Yeah, their time was off, it usually takes 10-15 minutes for the cut to be seen.

Yeah, prisoners have access to 3d printers and most of all, live rounds.

Frankly, you sound like someone who can never lose an argument, or I should say refuses to.

Yes, printing has come a long way in short time, you can even do metal sinter 3D prints now. Curing them while keeping them in spec however is a gamble so most do not cure the prints. This is what leads to their failures.


The Pen is mightier than the Sword,
War is fought on the field, peace is penned at the table,
Logan
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Seems this guy wants to believe he is always right and the rest of the world knows nothing.... Even former military would not be able to hold a cup to this guy....

Where did I mention any points of anything? Exactly, so you are already wrong there.

How about learning the laws of Spain regarding weapons and firearms for a start?

When they say barrels printed in 2 minutes, they most likely mean the EDM pieces to rifle a barrel made from stock pipe. After all, they are not experts in 3D printing nor gun manufacturing. Yeah, their time was off, it usually takes 10-15 minutes for the cut to be seen.

Yeah, prisoners have access to 3d printers and most of all, live rounds.

Frankly, you sound like someone who can never lose an argument, or I should say refuses to.

Yes, printing has come a long way in short time, you can even do metal sinter 3D prints now. Curing them while keeping them in spec however is a gamble so most do not cure the prints. This is what leads to their failures.


The Pen is mightier than the Sword,
War is fought on the field, peace is penned at the table,
Logan
So that's a really wordy way of writing, "No Kirk, these guns are not 'non-detectable' and there is certainly no evidence to be presented that these supposedly non-detectable guns have ever been used by 'hijackers' or by 'prisoners'." You know, what I actually asked for?

I appreciate all the distraction about "laws of spain" and other silliness and trying to explain away how the article's claim of "3D-printing equipment that could manufacture gun barrels in only two minutes" isn't reeeally claiming 3D printing, you know, despite what the article specifically says.

You used this article to respond to my request of proof of:
  1. 3D printed guns being "non-detectable"
  2. Non-detectable 3D printed guns being "favorites" of hijackers
  3. Non-detectable 3D printed guns being "favorites" of prisoners
And you know which of those the article proves? None. Zero. Nada. Zip. Zilch. Goose-egg.

So would you like to actually point me to a few news stories about actual hijackers using them? Can you point me to a few news stories about prisoners using them?

Or would you like to keep trying to insult me? Because using ad hominem attacks isn't exactly evidence that you have a strong position.
 
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Your information is inaccurate and, at best, out of date. The technology and techniques for 3D printed guns has progressed to a point where they are actually having a serious shooting competition using nothing but these sort of guns. There are categories for 3D printed and for 80% poly. Big industry names like Michael Bane are attending.


Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
I hear you, and what they do is cool, but those guys are not poor thugs. Google the equipment. A steel printer with decent tolerances and the capability to print a pistol barrel sized object (rifle barrels are too much for many of the systems) is $2000 and up, and do you trust the printed metal to be solid and not blow out due to an air pocket or poor melting? An all plastic 5 shot life span thing would be a lot less, but what the crap for -- a hollywood movie assassination? Computer, two plastic ak47s and tea, earl grey, hot. The price will fall. When you can print a fist sized hunk of reliable metal (proper tolerance, no air pockets or weak areas) for < 500 bucks, there will be an issue. Its not wrong to look ahead, but that is years away, decades maybe.

Mark my words, the current attacks on printed guns is nothing but a back door to attack building your own (to target the AR15 make your own DIY industry) and expand gun control on a false pretense. This is part of their multi-pronged attack.

On the flipside, if the attacks succeed at knocking out gun makers, this may be the future way to exercise your rights. Its important work.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
I hear you, and what they do is cool, but those guys are not poor thugs. Google the equipment. A steel printer with decent tolerances and the capability to print a pistol barrel sized object (rifle barrels are too much for many of the systems) is $2000 and up, and do you trust the printed metal to be solid and not blow out due to an air pocket or poor melting? An all plastic 5 shot life span thing would be a lot less, but what the crap for -- a hollywood movie assassination? Computer, two plastic ak47s and tea, earl grey, hot. The price will fall. When you can print a fist sized hunk of reliable metal (proper tolerance, no air pockets or weak areas) for < 500 bucks, there will be an issue. Its not wrong to look ahead, but that is years away, decades maybe.
That's not how they build them. The barrel, slide, springs, &tc. are all purchased of factory steel. Most of these are glock-offs or AR-pattern. They purchase the pressure bearing parts same as you would if you were upgrading your branded stuff. What the print is the "frame" or the receiver.

When they print a glock-off, it is the same as a glock. The "frame" is polymer, just like the glock. Same for an AR. The lower is printed but not the barrel.

Basically, they substitute 3D printing for Injection Molding.

Everyone is excited about the metal printing process but no on in the maker community trusts it to barrels, even if they could get their hands on one. I'm not sure they'd trust a Metal 3D printed slide. maybe.

Your price tag on the 3D metal printing systems is low as of last time I checked. $100K starting: Metal 3D Printer Buyer’s Guide | All3DP Pro

Mark my words, the current attacks on printed guns is nothing but a back door to attack building your own (to target the AR15 make your own DIY industry) and expand gun control on a false pretense. This is part of their multi-pronged attack.
Of course. :)

On the flipside, if the attacks succeed at knocking out gun makers, this may be the future way to exercise your rights. Its important work.
They're trying to attack parts too. The top level management of the gun proibitionists know that the maker segment buys the steel stuff like barrels, slides, and gas blocks.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
 
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