My HC PF-9 is going to be a big brother

Discussion in 'P-3AT' started by daviscustom, Mar 21, 2008.

  1. daviscustom

    daviscustom New Member

    65
    Dec 19, 2007
    Stopped by the local gun shop today and they had a HC P-3AT that was calling my name. I've been thinking about one for a while but I was holding out for a HC version. It has the grey frame, not my first choice, but still HC.

    Anyway, I couldn't stand it anymore. The local shop does lay-away so I put a down payment on it--didn't have $289 laying around so I'll have to wait a while to take it home. S# JPNxx


    A couple of questions:

    Is Buffalo Bore 380 GD going to be too hard on this little gun? I know it will be a handful, I'm just worried about hurting the gun.

    Do you have any problems with the grip sleeves wanting to grab the fabric in your pocket or hang on to your shirt (IWB)?
     
  2. spence13e

    spence13e New Member

    May 11, 2006
    Kansas
    nice find. post pics when you get it! got a grip cover on my P11 (well, now on the 40) and it doesn't snag on my shirt at all. it's very unobtrusive. it does (on the larger gun) add a negligible amount of additional thickness.
     

  3. daviscustom

    daviscustom New Member

    65
    Dec 19, 2007
    Thanks spence, I like the idea of a little recoil absorbtion if its not going to hang on to my clothing when I'm moving around. The way everyone talks, it will be needed.

    I haven't been able to look at the manual yet, do they warn against +P ammo for the 3at?
     
  4. daviscustom

    daviscustom New Member

    65
    Dec 19, 2007
    I've already been through most of those links, and I just looked at KT's p3at description. They don't give any warnings against +P ammo -- and they do for the pf9, so I am assuming they aren't worried about the hot stuff.
     
  5. TxCajun

    TxCajun Administrator Staff Member Supporter

    Sep 7, 2004
    Texas
    There is a good reason that KT doesn't mention +P rounds for the P3AT. There is no +P designation for 380 ammo as it is already a relatively high pressure round.  When the term is applied to 380 acp by manufactures, and it occassionally is, it is marketing hype.  Those rounds are likely loaded at or near maximum SAAMI pressure.
     
  6. Curt32

    Curt32 New Member

    Feb 24, 2007
    As usual Mr. Cajun is absolutly correct! there are no +P SAAMI specifications for the 380 round.

    Quote:
    Well I want to see that claim proven. Don't even get me started on the +P in 380 Just send them a message and ask how it can be +P when SAAMI  has never set +P specs in 380.  Also ask is this ammo with in SAAMI specs.  If so then not +P  Steven Camp got over 1100 with Corbon DPX in a PPK/S it I remember correct and Corbon didn't hang +P on their DPX


    tom j

    http://bersatalk.com/forums/thread/53285.aspx
     
  7. gvaldeg1

    gvaldeg1 New Member

    152
    Feb 8, 2008
    Just so you don't have to wade through that long list of links, here's the link to the Buffalo Bore tests in the P3AT:

    http://www.ktog.org/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1202857757

    The BB GD is spectacular in the P3AT.  One of their conclusions is: "The P3AT with BB Gold Dot is a formidable defensive weapon - penetrating almost 14 inches of plaster with a half inch+ diameter wound path after going through denim and rib cage. Compare the P3AT with BB Gold Dot at 236 ft lb actual measured energy with a S&W Snub-Nose 38 Cal +P Double Tap Gold Dot at actual measured 199 ft lb. I'll take the P3AT any day".  I have my P3AT loaded with BB GD's and I have no fears of it blowing up.  Apparently, "wheelguy" who did the test on this forum wasn't worried either.  My Buffalo Bore 380 boxes are marked +P and I know and they know that SAAMI doesn't recognize such a thing as +P for the 380 ACP.  However, most manufacturers load enough below SAAMI pressures to provide a safety margin for liability purposes.  BB just loads to the max and calls them +P.  They do all their testing with the actual guns.  This is a quote from one of the BB testers:

    " Note my “real world” velocities from my personal “real world” pistols.

    BDA-3.75 inch barrel----1218 fps
    Walther PPK-3.5 inch barrel-----1200 fps
    Colt Mustang Pocket Lite-2.75 inch barrel---1123 fps
    Keltec---1100 fps "

    A velocity of 1100 fps with a 90 gr GD from a P3AT is "smokin"!  This should answer your question.

    BTW: TxCajun says that the 380 is already a relatively high pressure round.  It's not!  It's one of the lowest pressure pistol rounds (380 Auto 21,500 ) compare that to 35,000 for the 9 mm or 38,500 for the 9 mm +P.  Even the wimpy little 25 ACP is 25,000.  It's higher than the 38 special (17,000) but the 38 special was originally loaded with 21 grains of black powder.  Anyway...it's your choice.  The BB ammo turns the P3 into a much more credible stopper.
     
  8. Curt32

    Curt32 New Member

    Feb 24, 2007
    I think he really wants to know if it might blow up the gun like the Magsafe load remember?? I don't think there's been any reports of the BB load causing any problems it's the load I plan on using just not a steady diet of them as long as you just use them for defensive purposes I don't believe there should be a problem.

    tom j
     
  9. Curt32

    Curt32 New Member

    Feb 24, 2007
    Say check this out got it off the BB sight VERY INTERESTING, they also have a hard cast that they clam 20 inches of penetration just want I need for my little hand canon when I'm out walking in the country when I don't have or my wife has the PF9.

    Tom j



    http://www.buffalobore.com/ammunition/default.htm#380

    Quote from BB
    Here’s the problem. The current 380 auto frangible ammo delivers a large amount of surface trauma, but lacks serious penetration. For example, if you shot me or another sane man in the face with modern frangible 380 ammo, it would blow off a big portion of my cheek and send a few teeth down my throat, I would undoubtedly fall to the ground in shock and pain, but I would be very much alive and functional if I could get past the shock and pain as that frangible bullet would have stopped some where inside my face, never making it to my brain. However, if you shot a drugged up maniac in the face with that same frangible 380 ammo and blew half his cheek off, he would keep right on coming because he is insane and is not thinking like you or I. Plus, he is likely pain free and fear free and wont know that half his cheek is missing and if he did know, he would not care. So whatever 380 ammo you shoot him in the face with, had better go through his face and blow his brain stem out the back of his head, because only a CNS (central nervous system) hit with a 380 is going to stop him. Likewise, a torso hit to the sternum needs to penetrate deep enough to blow all the way through his spine in order to shut him down spontaneously. If you fail to shut him down instantly, you and your loved ones are going to have to find a way to survive while you wait for him to bleed out and pass out. The best chance of survival for you and your family is to shut down the attacker instantly. So, we’ve designed a few 380 auto +P loads to keep you and your loved ones alive under the worst of scenarios
     
  10. daviscustom

    daviscustom New Member

    65
    Dec 19, 2007
    Thanks for the info, I probably won't shoot any more of the hot stuff than I have to ( to check reliability ,and periodically to stay comfortable shooting it), just because of the pain and financial suffering it will cause.

    I guess I have a month or two to accumulate ammo, extra mag, grip sleeve/energy absorb. pads, before I get my little gem out of jail.

    I used to carry a j-frame before I bought my pf9 so I like the sound of 380 performance that exceeds 38 spec.

    I haven't spent much time looking at the p3at threads, so I was not aware of the +P being BS. Thanks for spelling it out for me, I will keep up with the p3at info now that I'm going to own one.
     
  11. gvaldeg1

    gvaldeg1 New Member

    152
    Feb 8, 2008
    You're right on target davis, so to speak. I'm not recommending using the BB on a "regular basis. Like you said, just enough to check reliability and see that you're reasonably on target. Use the cheap stuff for punching paper. (BBs are about a buck a round from Cabela's.) I'm using the UMC 88 gr JHPs for target shooting. I know the tests show that they don't expand well from the P3 but they function great, they're cheap, and I can get them at a Wal-Mart near my house. However, for defensive carry...I use the BB GDs (7 rounds counting the one in the pipe).
     
  12. wheelguy

    wheelguy New Member

    May 4, 2007
    +1  Also - expect FTEs due to limp wristing with this higher powered ammo. You'll have to learn to grip all over again. In practial terms this means that unless you can put in the time and $ that is needed to master this combination of weapon + power load, you should consider using something that will make a more reliable weapon system for the way you shoot.

    Thought you should also be aware of some preliminary data I am seeing with the Buffalo Bore FMJ. It shoots like a 9mm at an astounding 1360 fps and 386 ftlbs of energy  :eek:. Holy smokes - I must be seeing things, or maybe my chronograph is busted. More tests and checks to do before I post that result officially, so don't spread this rumer around in the meantime. But, maybe you are a FMJ fan and wouldn't mind checking it for yourself?
     
  13. Buck

    Buck New Member

    12
    Feb 10, 2007
    a CS rep at Keltec told me NO +P.
     
  14. gvaldeg1

    gvaldeg1 New Member

    152
    Feb 8, 2008
     
    Why are you..."wheelguy"...the one who did the pork rib tests with the BB ammo now discouraging people on this forum from using it?  As for limp wristing with "this higher powered ammo"; the P3AT recoil is not bad with anything including the BB ammo.  Try something that really kicks like a 16 ounce .357 mag if you don't believe me.  Anyway, I bought a bunch of BB ammo based on your tests.  Aren't you supposed to be a P3AT expert.  Are you now telling me not to use it?  That's just great!  Additionally, Buck said "a CS rep at Keltec told me NO +P".  My comment is that it's not in their manual.  Of course, that's not much considering their laughable manual.  As for their FMJ, BB lists it at 1019 fps from the Kel-Tec. With a 95 grain bullet that's 219 ft-fb of energy. I have no idea where you got that data. Surely not from the Buffalo Bore website. So...rest easy your chronograph is not "busted" (sic).
     
  15. wheelguy

    wheelguy New Member

    May 4, 2007
    I didn't mean to be confusing. I carry nothing but BB gold dots in my CCW - including my P3AT and 12 oz 357 magnum. But, I have also spent the time and $ at the range to learn how to not limp wrist my P3AT. Perhaps I worded the caution too strongly, but I wanted to be sure that people know about the FTF risk and that you have to make an effort to overcome it. Many can't shoot the P3AT with high power ammo due to FTFs, but if you can shoot say, 2 mags of BB in a row at a 7 yard target with good aim and no FTFs, then you probably don't have as much of a limp wristing problem as most folks. Try it 1 handed and 2 handed - many folks discover that the details of how they apply their grip make a big difference in reliability.

    To highlight the main point - all semi-autos are subject to FTFs due to limp wristing. You don't want that to happen if you have to fight for your life, so be sure you know how to shoot your weapon system so that it is reliable. Lighter guns with higher power ammo are the most likely to have this problem, and the P3AT with BB is a worst case scenario. So, you need to focus on this aspect when you are training.

    Here's a great explanation by Packer of technique used to prevent limp wristing. Find more using the Search button at the top of the page... http://www.ktog.org/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1205562840/22#22

    1000-1100 fps for the BB FMJ sounds right. Trouble is, I was reading about 1360 fps the 1 time I took my chronograph to the range. Everything I know says that's just not possible with the P3AT. I've had chronograph trouble before, though, so that's my guess as to the reason for the oddly high numbers. In this case, I suspect the time of day because it was near dusk, whereas all my other speed measurements were done between 11:00 and 1:00 with the sun high in the sky. The chrono is designed to look for the bullet shadow straight up, and something about the sun being low in the sky on that day is, IMHO, the most likely cause. Easy to check next time I go to the outdoor range.
     
  16. gvaldeg1

    gvaldeg1 New Member

    152
    Feb 8, 2008
    Wheelguy...thanks for the great explanation!  I really appreciate it.  It does take a really firm hold with the BB ammo.  I appreciate the link that you posted too.  From what you said I assume that you must have a scandium/aluminum alloy framed S&W .357.  I almost got one of those instead of my titanium Taurus.  At the time I was looking at the 12 ounce scandium Smiths, they had a problem with gases from light bullets eroding metal from the backstrap at the flash gap.  They added a high-temperature metal strip as a shield in the flash gap to prevent this from happening in later production models.  Also they recommend shooting no bullets heavier than 125 grains because the savage recoil can upset the bullets from their seats and can lock up revolver cylinders.  This is also recommended with my titanium Taurus .357.  Anyway, I hope that you got a late version of the scandium Smith with the back strap protector.

    BTW: I haven't tried BB Gold Dots with anything but a two-handed grip.  I'm not sure what would happen one-handed...particularly with my "weak hand".  For defense I would try to be two-handed but...you can't reall predict those things can you?
     
  17. gvaldeg1

    gvaldeg1 New Member

    152
    Feb 8, 2008
    By the way wheelguy...if I sounded a little "testy" in my first post, I apologize. I was just a little frustrated because I bought BB Gold Dots based on your conclusions in the pork rib test and then I, mistakenly, thought that you were advising not to use them in P3ATs. You have made things perfectly clear in your explanations and further posts.
     
  18. eduk8tor

    eduk8tor New Member

    86
    Feb 10, 2008
    Daviscustom, I've got Sprinter's grip pads and grip sleeve on my P3-AT and grip extenders on my mags. I've had no problems with them grabbing my clothing from my IWB or SC. In fact with the set-up I have it cuts down on shock and increases accuracy. BTW little brother's are great to have around! Here's a pic of the grip.

    [​IMG]
     
  19. wheelguy

    wheelguy New Member

    May 4, 2007
    Yep - its the newer S&W model with the little J-shaped heat shield above the gap. Many KTOGers have a snub of some sort. I like this one because it's only 1 ounce heavier than my P3AT, but packs 346 ftlbs of 357 magnum power. I alternate between it and the P3AT.

    I have tested many kinds of ammo in the 357 - measured bullet pull with a micrometer, velocity, etc. Pull amount, and the risk of cylinder lockup, is predictable based on the manufacturer. None of the 15 or so high quality models I tested even came close to having a problem in the S&W (roughly 300% margin of safety in the S&W design). The heaviest I have tried is the 180 grain Black Talon - yowch! Heavy bullet = maximum recoil. However, right on the barrel, it says "NO LESS THAN 120 GR BULLET". Yep - no LESS than 120gr. Has nothing to do with recoil, but with reducing ignition of powder in the flash gap. Using a heavy bullet allows fuller ignition of the powder as well as maximum pressure buildup where it is supposed to happen - back in the cylinder.

    [​IMG]