My Certified Letter to Packer...

Discussion in 'Feedback and Announcements' started by Checker4Tix, Oct 27, 2008.

  1. Checker4Tix

    Checker4Tix Well-Known Member

    Aug 6, 2007
    ...was returned unclaimed and unopened.


    I really don't know what this means and will go to the Post Office tomorrow to chase this down. I assume that they attempted to deliver the letter three times and Packer wouldn't take it. Whatever it means, I suppose I'm now officially screwed out of about $125 in parts I have on back order with him. I ain't happy.

    I'll let you know when I have more info.
  2. Stevil

    Stevil New Member

    Sep 8, 2004
    I wonder if we have another KTOGer on the ground near him who could look in on him and make sure he isn't trapped under a heavy object. :-?

  3. wheelguy

    wheelguy New Member

    May 4, 2007
    I'd have to guess that there is no "there" there. No tools, no shop, etc. It's just impossible to be thinking about producing something one day, then suddenly be buying machines the next. Read back to when this idea first appeared, and perhaps you'll agree that it probably never was a reality.
  4. TxCajun

    TxCajun Administrator Staff Member Administrator Moderator Supporter

    Sep 7, 2004
    I'm glad you brought this up.  I was about to start a thread myself.  I was going to put it in the Feedback/Announcements Forum because while newbies can read the Counter, they cannot post here.  I'll move this thread to that forum.

    Some background info for those who haven't been involved:

    Two Pistol Packer has been a member and prolific poster for several years.  You will still find some of his stickied threads related to these guns on this forum.  At some point about 2 years back, he started making a few homemade upgrade parts and offering them for sale.  Quite a few folks bought his "dial-a-trigger and the subsequent lighter pull triggers.  Many others ordered metal mag catches, followers and triggers that he was making by hand.

    Early last fall, he disappeared from the forum.  He did not answer PMs, emails or even U.S. mail for 3 months - not from me or anyone else.  Amid much speculation and even some name-calling, he resurfaced after 90 days.  IIRC, a member had a friend or relative (LEO) in the area go by Packer's house and let him know that we were concerned about his wellbeing.  When he returned to posting, his explanation was that he had bought some milling equipment and set it up in the bedroom of his trailer.  According to him, the floor caved in.  Apparently, this somehow took out his internet access.  Packer said that it took him 3 months to get things back to normal.  During that time, he did not ship any parts to those who had paid in advance.

    During that 3 month absence, several members were critical, name-calling, etc.  Myself and others who had known Packer for years, even met and shot with him, defended his honor.  I made an offer to refund money on behalf of Packer to any who really needed it.  So did RJ.  Several folks provided him documentation and he sent them their money back.  It totaled several hundred dollars.  

    When Packer resurfaced, he mentioned that he was building a shop to house his equipment and would soon be up and running, and able to send out much better parts as a result of the shop and machinery.  People waited.  Others ordered more stuff and paid in advance.  

    Then Packer mostly disappeared again.  He would surface only very occasionally and report that his shop was almost ready.  People ordered more stuff and sent him more money.  Again he was barely present on the forum.  He would occasionally pop into a thread and hawk his wares if someone complained about a trigger pull or mag catch problem.  However, he was no longer posting much to help anyone out or otherwise participate in the forum.  His participation was becoming almost entirely commercial in nature.  When asked about parts, they were always just round the corner.  He was now apparently having issues setting up his cnc gear.  People kept ordering and paying for stuff.

    Things continued like that into this past spring.  When questioned about parts, he was now saying that he was having issues learning how to use the equipment, but he was sure he'd be up and running in a couple of weeks.  I contacted him during that time and inquired.  I got the standard "any day now" line.  Some folks started requesting refunds.  A couple got one.  One member who requested and received a refund got a scathing PM from Packer, saying that he would never sell anything to that member and that he was putting him on his ignore (PM) list.  That member had waited patiently for about a year, IIRC, and was treated like that.  About that time, I contacted Packer again and suggested that he send out parts or refunds ASAP.

  5. TxCajun

    TxCajun Administrator Staff Member Administrator Moderator Supporter

    Sep 7, 2004
    The situation remained the same through the early summer. At some point, I contacted Packer and inquired as to when people could expect parts or a refund. He did not answer but did post his standard excuses in a related thread. I decided that some action needed to be taken. I posted a list of 4 options to the other moderators and asked them to weight in. Here they are, excerpted from an ongoing thread in the Moderator Forum here. That thread and its long running discussion of the Packer saga has now reached 15 pages:

    At that point, we attempted option A. I contacted Packer. That was when he ignored my email but posted in that related thread. Although he absolutely, 100% deserved banishment, we tried to avoid that in fear that it would lessen anyone's chances of getting any money or parts from him. Until then, he was still selling and apparently delivering on the trigger kits. He did not manufacture them as they were just a few parts that he bought and resold at about 1000% markup, IMO. None-the-less, I removed his advertisement thread in the Trading Post and removed his sig line that accomplished the same. It was part punishment but mostly an attempt to motivate him to make good on long outstanding, prepaid orders. I made it clear to Packer that he was not to conduct any further business on the forum until he had made good. Shortly thereafter, in a couple of threads, I twice caught him responding to inquiries about light trigger kits from newbie and asking them to PM their email addresses. At that point, I had no choice but to kick it up to the next level and ban him. I sent him an email telling him that his account was banned and would be restored when he informed me via email that he had settled all accounts. To date, I have heard nothing from him. Apparently, no one else has either. 2 days ago, I sent PMs to several that I knew had entrusted Two Pistol Packer with their hard-earned dollars. Here are some replies (names removed for privacy):

  6. TxCajun

    TxCajun Administrator Staff Member Administrator Moderator Supporter

    Sep 7, 2004
    This has gone on now for a very long time.  Some of us have speculated that Packer spent ktoger money on cnc equipment and/or his shop, trailer repair, etc and cannot refund everyone's money.  For me, even if true, that is not an acceptable excuse.  I don't know why Packer has not responded to emails or even a registered letter.  Perhaps this time, as some speculated last fall, he has health issues.  Maybe he died for all I know.  More likely, IMO, he is just using his banning as an excuse to not make good on promises he could not fulfill anyway.  I still don't think he set out to cheat anyone.  The staff here agrees that he probably just bit off more than he could chew with regard to setting up and operating cnc equipment.  I don't really know that much about it.  Regardless, the result is the same.  This entire clusterf#ck has already caused me and the staff here far too much stress and anxiety.  We have tried not to interfere in the business of other ktogers and have given Packer every conceivable opportunity to redeem himself.  As I told him more than once, "you would have been banned anywhere else long ago".

    So...  for those of you with a vested interest or simply morbid curiosity, this is where we are with Packer.  If he owes you money or parts, feel free to share your details and/or vent.  

    P.S. A lot of Packer's customers were newbies who joined just to PM Packer their email address and order stuff. Since they can read but not post in the Counter, as I said earlier, I will eventually move this to the Admin Forum where everyone can view and post.
  7. doubloon

    doubloon New Member

    Jan 5, 2008
    Houston-ish, TX
    My only vested interest is that KTOG comes out of this with a clean conscience.

    You guys have been more than fair even considering the tremendous contributions 2PP has made to this forum.
  8. pocketgun

    pocketgun Guest

    May 4, 2005
    It is really very sad to see this, but it is not the first time someone got the money in their hand and forgot that it wasn't earned until they lived up to their end of the deal.


    Walt, when you get a chance to read this, just remember that intent counts for a lot among friends, even if some things got said by you that maybe weren't true somewhere along the line.  It is time to quit hiding from it and just face it.  All the energy and innovation are forgotten now - what is left of your rep is as dead as those possums you shot with the Silvertips so long ago.  But there is a way you can make things right, and it starts with nutting up and calling Dale/RJ/someone and just explaining what really is going on.  You got in a tight financial spot.  You lied and made excuses.  You spent the money on food/rent/mortgage/gas/etc. None of this is going to be a big surprise.  Nothing you are going to say is going to sound worse than that you are a thief, and that is what people are calling you now.  

    I am sure that there is still a way to make things right again, even if it is a slow process and doesn't involve selling anything.  Instead of trying to dig your way out of this mess on your own, why not trust your friends to help you with advice and a plan?  You can't be sleeping well right now.  Swallow your f-ing pride and make the call...

    Your friend,

  9. Doc Holliday

    Doc Holliday New Member

    Apr 20, 2007
    Whew...I was unaware of all this until just now.

    Good thing I DIDN'T order those metal mag releases!
  10. Checker4Tix

    Checker4Tix Well-Known Member

    Aug 6, 2007
    I went to the post office this morning before work and asked about the "history" of my letter. They said the address was valid, though there is no way to confirm that Walt actually lives there. They said that they would have attempted to deliver the letter as usual, but that a signature would be required to confirm delivery. Apparently he was not home to give a signature, and so they left a notice for him to come to his post office to sign for and claim the letter. They attempted delivery three times, and left notices for him to pick up the letter twice. After the third failed delivery attempt, they just sent it back to me.

    He knows my name, and probably knew what the letter was about. As I see it, he chose to ignore me and my refund request. I'll probably send another non-certified letter in my last attempt to contact him. This time I'll ask for all my money back.
  11. ttorion

    ttorion New Member

    Jul 18, 2007
    I sent a certified letter to Walt on October 20 requesting a refund for the two mag catches I had ordered. I even included an SASE and told him he could deduct the cost of a USPS MO from the refund amount. So far, the USPS tracking shows they left a notice on October 23.

    I believe the 435 S Cascade St address he is using is a post office box. Doing an internet search comes up with an address of 222 Wildlife Dr. If you do a search of that address in you'll come up with an image of a trailer in a rural area.

    In my certified letter I advised Walt if I hadn't received my refund by November 10 I would be filing a fraud complaint with the US Postal Inspection Service. I advise others who Walt owes money to do the same at If enough complaints are received maybe they'll do an investigation.
  12. Checker4Tix

    Checker4Tix Well-Known Member

    Aug 6, 2007
    It appears we have a first class bung hole among us. I thought you all would like to see the friendly little email burritoboy just sent me. Thou shalt not use the PM button to flame. All such nastiness shall be made very public.

    So there, bungholeboy. You can kiss my dip nuts! ;)
  13. Checker4Tix

    Checker4Tix Well-Known Member

    Aug 6, 2007
    Well, well. Bungholeboy strikes again. He musta registered just to wag his boney finger at me. Take a look HERE. Clearly a first class tin foil hat moron. ::)

    BTW, I have been and remain a fan of Packers. I joined KTOG because of him. Many folks on this board are sorry the events of recent months have transpired, but no one wishes Walt any harm. Walt's address is well known around these parts and it is absolutely absurd of you to imply that any of us would show up at his door to do him harm. I and others want our money back, but that's it.

    For crying out loud...

    TX, you might want to look into this a bit. Do you recognize this nit wit's IP address?
  14. illogicalmethod

    illogicalmethod Well-Known Member

    Jun 7, 2005

    No one here wants to harm Walt.....

    Please be nice and kind and when you're notifying the authorities in Walt's area, please make sure you advise them of this fact. I'm sure they will take a GREAT liking to you NEEDLESSLY pestering them..
  15. adamsesq

    adamsesq New Member

    Dec 25, 2006
    Just for the record - an address is public information. It is not something that is not already available all over the internet with a simple search. It is also something available to anyone and everyone who sent him money...doh! There is no invasion of privacy here, nor is there an intent to incite. Relax _______boy, whatever your name is.

  16. panoz77

    panoz77 New Member

    May 14, 2008
    There is nothing illegal over posting his public information over the internet ::), I hope if burrito calls the cops to report this he also mentions the mail fraud, ;)

    I'm glad I'm clear of this mess, and hope it gets worked out for everyone affected.
  17. haertig

    haertig Well-Known Member

    Jun 14, 2008
    This is a sad situation. It serves to reinforce my paranoia (according to my wife!) about money transactions with unknowns. "Unknowns" sounds heavy, because I actually feel like I know many of the people here at KTOG. But I really don't. Ape is the only one I've met in person (and he's exactly like what I imagined he'd be, FWIW!) That's the nature of online forums I guess. Over the internet, I pay via credit card, and use a single-use credit card number at that - for added security. If this is not acceptable to the seller, we don't do business. I do not use PayPal, because I don't trust them mediating for me. I do not pay in advance either. This may be an overly harsh position for me to take, and it sometimes locks me out of buying things that I'd like. But sometimes initial good intentions by a seller occasionally go bad. Or in this case, very bad. I hope everyone gets their money back, or the parts they ordered. Unfortunately, some of the parts that people paid for and never got (metal mag releases?) may now be available for free directly from KelTec. What a mess.
  18. panoz77

    panoz77 New Member

    May 14, 2008
    Metal mag catches are available free from Kel-Tec?
  19. Ape

    Ape New Member

    Jul 16, 2008
    You're right Panoz! This is all KT's fault! Lets post their addy and storm the castle! lol If they'd just make the parts we want we wouldn't have to go to dark alley's to buy our seedy needs. ;-) lol

    Sorry? :-/ Just thought a moment of levity would go well here? ;-)
  20. tommyray

    tommyray New Member

    Sep 2, 2008
    I use PayPal for everything I can because they come through if you get screwed. I have had two instances where I did not receive what I ordered online (one was broken, and the company would not replace.) In both instances, PayPal refunded my money and went after the BG.

    Panoz77...I believe if memory serves me that Packer offered metal catches for the P3AT, which are not available from Kel Tec.