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Discussion Starter #1
If you've tried to purchase 1 3/4" shells lately maybe you found what I did... when they are found they are $1 per, when they can be found. I find that too expensive to practice with. My solution is to make my own and I'm in "Learning how to" mode right now. Is making them free? No, of course not, there is a cost to the gear, but once purchased most of the really expensive stuff gets used over and over. There are components that are expendable and they also have a cost.

I don't want birdshot, but that can be purchased if that's the goal. One can also practive with inexpensive 2 3/4" birdshot and use the spent hulls to make short shells. My goal is #4 buckshot and slugs. They are made of unobtainium at this time of anarchists/domestic terrorists in the streets and burning down the cities, so I'm learning how to cast my own. I never wanted to do this and resisted for years. But now it's forced on me. That's another story, but there is a learning curve to casting lead also a cost in mold(s) and a way to melt lead, yada, yada. I'm learning and am a noob at it but I'll get there. Proper gear still needs to come in so that I can be successful at it.

But I have been experimenting with and testing short length shells. That gear I do have on hand.

I don't plan on "Shazamm!" all of a sudden putting these short shells together magically. Instead I'm doing it in steps and testing each step along the way, learning as I go. Then at some point all those steps WILL be put together into what my goal is.
Factory 1 3/4" shells do indeed start with hulls that are 1 3/4" long. Where do I find components for that length? If anyone knows where at a reasonable cost please let me know. So I cut down longer hulls to 2" and then I can use off the shelf and commonly available components.(see link to video below)
One step in the education of making these is just to make a reduced shell and see what happens. So I took some Winchester loads using 1oz of #8 shot, and removed everything from the hull, saving the powder, wad, and shot, separately of course. The hull was cut down to 2", and the powder put back, the compression shock absorber cut off of the base of the wad and reinserted into the hull and pushed down firmly. Then 7/8oz of the shot replaced, an over shot wad put in place and a roll crimp applied. It was test fired with no problems.
So I made another 6 and fired those from the magazine. Again, no problems. I call that a success. But I didn't pattern them to see what they do on paper. At this point I don't care since the goal isn't a load for birds but #4 buckshot and a LEE 7/8 oz drive key slug load. I don't think the hulls will be usable for a second loading so I'll just buy a mess of hulls and consider them expendable.
The difference between Aguila factory loads and mine? Theirs are 1 3/8" long before firing and mine are 1 5/8" long. The magazine of the KS7 holds seven 2 3/4" shells. The Aguila allows 11 in the magazine. Mine might only get 10 in it.
Using existing shells and cutting them down as I did for the test costs time plus the cost of the shells. Shop around for shells that launches a payload heavier than 7/8 oz of shot and you're OK when replacing that larger payload with only 7/8 oz'. The shells needn't be expensive but they need to use a plastic hull and a wad/shot cup. Cost... OK, the cost of the gear to accomplish it needs to be figured in too. But that gets ameliorated over the numbers of shells produced. Aguila 1 3/4" shells cost (when I can find them) roughly $1 per. My time is free if I enjoy doing something and I like making ammo and always have.
I don't have a cost per shell for my made from scratch shells and probably never will, but it's going to be hugely LESS than factory Aguila.
I inquired on the CastBoolit forum re: casting #4 buckshot and I feel confident that when I get my new propane burner that I'll be successfully making buckshot out of scrap lead. A gent came back to my inquiry and gave me a technique that forces lead into the mold with the gear I already have.
The picture shows my experimental #8 shotshells and the Aguila version, also their 1 3/4" slug. The actual difference in length isn't easy to see in the picture, that's why I gave the measurements. The over shot disk is clearish (frosted in the center), that's why the shot can be seen, but the over shot disk is there to hold the shot in place. Replace the shot with buckshot or a slug and it's what I want to make. Could I hunt birds with shells such as that? Maybe. But I'd need to pattern a mess of them to see how the roll crimp affects the pattern. Other than reduced recoil there really wouldn't be any reason to use them since shotgun magazines get plugged to 5 rounds. Have you ever felt the recoil or even heard the shot when shooting at game? I never have. Might be OK for use at the range though.



That's all I have for now. Other than a huge sense of accomplishment. I'm getting closer to my goal of short #4 buckshot and slugs for a decent price. Did I mention that I want to put at least a few hundred of each on the shelf "for a rainy day"?

To convert loaded shells to shorties requires:
3/4 PVC pipe, one piece 1 15/16" long cut square and accurately. This will be your gauge for trimming a long shell.
1 utility knife, fresh, extremely sharp blade
1 knife with a longer blade, very sharp.
small containers to contain the shot and powder taken from the shells.
A push rod (nothing fancy)
A roll crimp tool
A shell vise and a drill press
OR
hand "plier" shell gripper & another piece of 3/4" PVC pipe cut square @ 1 7/16"ish, and an electric drill

There is a youtube video that demonstrates the technique and watching it will save me all sorts of typing.
He uses spent hulls and needs to add a powder charge. He's using 20gr Alliant Red Dot, as I will. tapping out a spent primer and putting a new one in place is pretty simple and you should be able to figure out the basic gear required to get that done.
OK, I'll help. You'll need a punch to deprime and a flat surface and another piece of smaller ID pipe to fit inside the hull to drive a fresh primer in. Don't tap the primer itself or you'll find out just how loud one is when it goes off. Instead place it on a flat surface and either press it into place from the inside of the shell using a pipe to put force around outside the primer pocket, tap that pipe to drive the primer into place. But don't tap the primer itself. And make sure the tool used is hollow so that if one does go off it goes harmlessly into the air. Don't have your face or other body parts above it. Primers are explosive and have force. If you can find an old LEE shotshell kit they come with what's needed. They are no longer made.)

 

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Nice post. I have been considering doing the same thing. Sorry I can't offer any advice or tips... I'm even further down the learning curve than you are. Will be watching your progress with interest.
 

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Discussion Starter #3 (Edited)
Thanks. I was tipped off today that Grafs has #4 buckshot. Even though I still plan on casting some #4BS I still ordered some. They also have virgin primed hulls for a good price. That way I don't need to size and prime hulls. Ordered a mess of those too. The roll crimp really screws with the hull and I doubt that they can be used again. Maybe that's why fold crimps are so popular? I know I used to reload them multiple times decades ago.

I don't have a good way to reload 2 3/4" shells anymore (maybe I should buy a loader so that I can use them over and over with a star crimp??), but I'll buy really inexpensive birdshot shells when I find it, probably by the case, shoot them, and turn them into short shells then discard the hulls after one use.
 

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I love casting boolits and reloading. Several years ago, I decided I wanted to make short shells, possibly shorter than Aguila if I could get them to feed. I bought a few hundred dollars worth of shot shell reloading tools and supplies, mostly from Ballistic Products. They specialize in shot shell reloading and they had shot shell cutters, roll crimpers, etc. I bought a large assortment of shot cards, spacers, etc. All of that stuff barely fits in a large Rubbermaid Brute plastic tote. Unfortunately, that was one project I never even started, much less completed. I bought all the stuff, shuffled it around for a few months, and then put it in storage.

At the time, my initial goal was to trim the wads to eliminate the buffer in the middle while retaining the shallow powder cup on the bottom and the shot cup on the top which is the perfect diameter for the Lee 12 gauge slug. I've cast a lot of those and I've had good accuracy out to 150 yards even though there is no rifling in the bore. The Lee slugs aren't spin stabilized so they don't need rifling. They're stabilized the same way as a badminton birdie. The mass is in the nose of the projectile and the skirt of the hollow base trails behind like a tail. As an added benefit, they have fearsome terminal ballistics. On impact, the hollow base folds forward and expands a lot like a hollow point bullet.

By the way, you might be careful about dissecting commercial shot shells, cutting out the wad's buffer and reusing the components. The buffer allows the heavy projectile to accelerate more slowly, and that does more than lower the felt recoil for the shooter. If the projectile is on top of the powder and is forced to accelerate faster, the powder burn rate will increase from the added back pressure and you could have excess chamber pressure. I planned on starting with reduced powder and slowly working up, and stopping long before I achieved the muzzle velocity of a high brass 12 gauge hunting load. There's probably a good reason that the Aguila mini-shells use lighter projectiles and have lower velocities. I planned on trying LongShot powder first, because that powder was resistant to pressure spikes in my experiments to develop the 9mm Mach 2 SUB-2000 round (which was a lot of fun and totally frag nasty).

I now have a resin 3D printer than prints very tough polyurethane at high resolution and this might allow me to 3D print my own custom mini-shell wads for use with the Lee slugs, however, I think it might be even better to work with a company like NOE to make a custom mold that casts a hollow base slug that's almost the ID of a 12 gauge bore, that I could powder coat to act as a shot cup to prevent leading in the bore. That might allow the wad to be eliminated altogether. The powder could pack inside the hollow base of the slug. These could be micro-slugs. They'd probably be too short to feed reliably, but they'd be so awesome that it'd be worth modifying a KSG and KS7 to reliably feed them. I could 3D print a spacer to keep these very short shells from flipping when feeding. My only goal would be for YouTube bragging rights for the most shots from a KSG and KS7. If I did that, I'd be tempted to buy a KSG-25 to see if I could get it to shoot 45 or maybe 51 micro-shells.

Yeah, I've spent way too long thinking about this. :D
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Yeah, I've spent way too long thinking about this. :D
Well, maybe, but thinkin' about things like this spawns really good ideas. I'm also cursed by not having the "what if" removed from my thinking at a young age.

My new burner will arrive today, GOD willin'. Then I'll try, hopefully today, to cast more #4BS.

Re: pressure spikes... I wish there was a sign for high pressure in a shotgun, but I don't know of any. Do you, other than a burst barrel? FWIW, that's the reason I bought larger payload shells and don't put all of the shot back in place. OK, plus it simulates the 7/8 oz Lyman Foster slug and what I plan to load for #4BS.

The slightly longer shell seems to feed a bit better than the Aquila 1 3/4". I had one Agiula swap ends and that's a bear to unstick in the KS7 innards w/o taking it apart. I don't even know if that's possible (swapping ends) with a 2" shell.

One thing I might try is casting zinc slugs for the reduced weight and even more reduced recoil or increased velocity. But I don't know about the latter. I feel queasy about playing with a shotgun w/o using a pressure barrel. If my math is correct the zinc 7/8 oz Foster should weigh close to 230gr vs 383gr for lead. It might make for a viable HD slug load w/o pass through.

If you do persue the ultra short shells, good luck with it. You'll need to keep us posted if you go for the record in a KSG.
 

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I wish there was a sign for high pressure in a shotgun, but I don't know of any. Do you, other than a burst barrel?
It's possible that a flattened primer might be an indication of a slight overpressure but I don't know if that's true in a shotgun as it is in a rifle. Shotgun pressures are significantly lower than rifle chamber pressures so that's likely not a reliable indicator, and even if it was, the goal is to avoid overpressure and not to detect a dangerous overpressure just before a barrel explodes.

The best method would probably be developing loads in a test barrel that has very thick walls, that's instrumented for a piezo pressure sensor so you could see the entire pressure curve and understand what's happening. That's probably outside the budget of home gamers like us. The next best method is probably a strain gauge epoxied to the top of the chamber to measure the expansion of the barrel at the chamber to infer chamber pressure. There were kits for this sold to reloaders but I haven't seen them lately. They're probably still around but off my radar. They need to be calibrated to the peak pressure of a known load, and may still be more than a reloader may want to do.

I'd start low and slowly work up while chronographing the loads with an intent to stay well below the performance of full length shells, but that strategy requires some luck because the powder burn rate induced pressure spikes are very nonlinear. It could be possible to have a load with 80% of the velocity of a standard load for the same projectile mass and still have a dangerously high pressure. I'd do the load development in an inexpensive Mossberg with readily available cheap replacement barrels, I'd wear a face shield, I might remotely activate the trigger to keep my hand out of harm's way, I'd wear a face shield in addition to my usual eye protection, and I wouldn't allow others to shoot any of the development loads. When I had a load that I liked, I'd shoot a hundred of them before I allowed anyone else to shoot them, and I'd advise those carefully chosen friends that this is a very experimental load that I made myself so it's not as safe as factory ammo, allowing them to make a fully informed risk-reward decision for themselves.

Good luck with your mini-shells and please keep us posted of your progress.

I'm trying to make some time to sneak away to the range on one of these glorious fall days to develop my Ten556 loads, but we lost one of Mom's sitters and I'm heading over for the fifth day in a row to watch Mom. She has dementia and can't be left alone, so it's difficult to get any range time. What's the Ten556 project? I 3D printed some sabots that allow a 5.56mm bullet to be loaded into a 10mm cartridge. The goal is to get near AR-15 performance from my Glock 40. Heh heh heh. Reloading is fun!
 

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Discussion Starter #7
The goal is to get near AR-15 performance from my Glock 40. Heh heh heh. Reloading is fun!
Yeah it is!

I definitely intend to proceed cautiously.

Years ago when playing with sabotted bullets I did it in a .308 Win handgun with a 15" barrel. The data that came with the sabots was absolute garbage, using normal .308 powders which when used with a sabot and a .223 bullet looked like a candle was being burned in the barrel. So I went to much faster powders. I remember using AA1680 and getting somewhere near 3600fps. I was happy wit the velocity but accuracy wasn't what I wanted. It was something like 3moa. I contacted the mfg'r of the sabots and he claimed that I was doing real good and that's about all that I could expect to get from the combo. That was the end of my sabotted bullet caper. But shooting them was an experience. One could feel the thump on the chest from the blast.

I did successfully produce some #4 buckshot yesterday and weighing up what 5 strings of 3 buckshot each weighs I got .700 oz'. The shell was made for 1 oz loads and I was figuring .875 oz' as being good. 7/8 oz' is what I tested for birdshot and what the slugs will weigh. Why that buckshot payload? I read somewhere that one doesn't need to separate the shot as they come from the mold. They separate somewhere between firing and hitting the patterning paper. So I won't take the time to separate them. 5 strings fit inside the shot cup nicely, so 15 pellets it is.

Something else I might try... maybe, is to cast some zinc slugs. They are 60% the weight of lead so zinc might make for a viable HD slug w/o over penetration. But I need to stress the "might" for this experiment. I've read that I can't melt zinc with propane, only oxy/propane and that would make it too much of a bother IMO.
 

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Zinc melts at around 785 degrees, so most bullet casing furnaces may not be up to it.
Also, pure zinc is a rather brittle metal so it might not be a good choice.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
I'd like to find some scrap zinc to see if my burner will melt it. But I can't see myself doing oxy/propane. This project is (as always) costing far more than I anticipated.

My goal with the buckshot are reduced recoil and reduced length 12ga shotshells. I'd love to get them as short as the Aguila 1 3/4" shells. Or at least that was my goal. But frankly they are possibly too short. I had one reverse ends in testing and that just won't do if I have to use these shells for their intended and hopefully never needed use.

But on to the #4 buckshot. So I had the cast buckshot and laid the 3 "strings" of connected shot into the wad. 5 of them fit in it pretty nicely (15 total #4s). Checking the weight they weighed .700 oz. My test loads of #8 shot were 7/8oz or .875 oz so I had plenty of reduced payload. I figured it would be safe. Tested one and shot it against a dog food bag at about 10 yards. I found 5 holes. A few of them were oblong so I'm going to assume the shot didn't come apart in firing. I couldn't care less about that. A 3/4 wide wound channel works for me. The pattern was maybe 6" wide out of the cyl bored KS7. I want these for close range anyway, "just in case" during these days of anarchists and domestic terrorism.

So I made 14 more and now I'm out of buckshot. Fired some more and the reduced recoil goal was clearly met, they are definitely reduced recoil. I have no idea what the velocity is though and I'm reluctant to shoot any shotshell of any type through my skyscreens. So I'm stymied there. Maybe I'll ask for a LabRadar for Christmas.

So now I need a better pot, one without holes and one that will stand up to molten lead. The slug mold also needs to be delivered.

Whoops! I forgot! It never happened w/o pics...

My "WW" two inch shells next to a Aguila 1 3/4" shell.


My shell from a different perspective. The top shot of the strings of connected shot are clearly seen.
 

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Thanks. I was tipped off today that Grafs has #4 buckshot. Even though I still plan on casting some #4BS I still ordered some. They also have virgin primed hulls for a good price. That way I don't need to size and prime hulls. Ordered a mess of those too. The roll crimp really screws with the hull and I doubt that they can be used again. Maybe that's why fold crimps are so popular? I know I used to reload them multiple times decades ago.

I don't have a good way to reload 2 3/4" shells anymore (maybe I should buy a loader so that I can use them over and over with a star crimp??), but I'll buy really inexpensive birdshot shells when I find it, probably by the case, shoot them, and turn them into short shells then discard the hulls after one use.
I have a MEC sizemaster I bought about 40 years ago that loads great 12 gauge. I used to cast my own 12 ga slugs from the Lyman mould and load them in standard paper or plastic hulls. I liked the Lyman slug design because you slipped the slug inside a standard plastic shot wad - the slugs were deliberately sized for this - and folded a star crimp over the top. The only difference in loading those slugs and loading birdshot was instead of dropping shot into the cups with the shot bar, you just dropped the slug in then countinued as normal. I like that the Sizemaster resizes the metal bases back to factory specs. I have fired many of these slug loads and am satisfied with their accuracy and power.
 

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That's a very nice looking roll crimp.

Keep this up, and you'll get my short shot shell project off the back burner.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
I like that the Sizemaster resizes the metal bases back to factory specs.
I don't remember what it's called, but I bought a lightly used MEC sizer whose only role in life is to size the brass of shotshells. All of my used hulls got the treatment. But the roll crimp really screws up the hull. I don't see how I can even put a wad into it after one firing. I'm saving the hulls though. I've seen something about "skiving" does that return the hull back to usable condition?
 

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That's a very nice looking roll crimp.

Keep this up, and you'll get my short shot shell project off the back burner.
:D That's the goal!

(roll crimp) Thanks. It's not me, it's just the roll crimper and the drill press doing it. But if I could take credit for it I would.

I'm posting the thread so that if someone is wanting to roll their own they know that it can be done. I was targeting no one in particular, but yeah, if you already have the gear you should do it. It's really not difficult to do. In a bit my virgin hulls will arrive and then the process will be slightly different. I'll need to throw a powder charge (20gr Alliant Red Dot) instead of using what was done at the factory for me. But for those folks who don't have the means to throw a charge factory birdshot loads are available. They just need to buy a shell with a load heavier than the new payload. The problem at the start of this project was #4 buckshot availability, that's why I began casting it. Now I see that Grafs has it in stock. So things are coming back into stock. I don't know if Ballistic Products ever ran out of slugs but their prices for slugs alone was simply too high unless someone only wants to have a few on hand. I was looking for more. I'll never get my investment back, but I will achieve independence and I like that. I'll never live long enough to use up the wheel weights that I have even after my slug mold comes in and I begin loading them.

For those who don't know, you never want to hand out your loads unless TEOTWAKI (the end of the world as we know it) happens. If their shotgun (rifle or handgun too) should blow up while lawyers are still practicing you are liable. Why? Prove they didn't put your ammo into it. It's a very bad idea to allow others to shoot your ammo at this time.

On another forum it was suggested that a chronograph can be used 3-4' away from the shotgun muzzle and get good readings, so as soon as the weather permits (I'm hoping for rain, a week of steady rain would be about right) I'll try to obtain that data.
 

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I've seen something about "skiving" does that return the hull back to usable condition?
I bought a skiving tool to use in case I wanted to cut down a hull to shorten it and then be able to make a folded crimp on top. Thinning the hull thickness at the top to make a folded crimp is the purpose of a skiving tool. I don't know if it would help in removing the melted plastic of a rolled crimp, but I'm doubtful. I think of a rolled crimp as a one time process. I wasn't planning on reusing roll crimped hulls. If I wanted to make a large number of roll crimped mini-shells, I'd try to buy once fired hulls from a local skeet range. I bought a large number of Winchester XX hulls a long time ago, on eBay. They were cheap. I was tentatively planning on a rolled crimp for slugs and a folded crimp for 00 shot, and hopefully avoid the overshot cards. I like to keep it simple. To reuse hulls, a folded crimp on both slugs and shot would be ideal. That's where the skiving tool would come in handy. I was planning on tooling up and doing some short run production on my mill-drill (hobby grade combo milling machine and drill press) - trimming hulls, skiving hulls for folding or roll crimping finished shells, etc.


It's not me, it's just the roll crimper and the drill press doing it. But if I could take credit for it I would.
I've seen pictures of very poorly done roll crimps, using a roll crimper and drill press. Apparently there is some skill required. I made a couple of test roll crimps with a hand drill and realized that there is some technique to it, even after the hulls are trimmed to the correct length for the load, which is a technique in itself. A depth stop on a drill press would be a big quality improvement once the process is established.



The problem at the start of this project was #4 buckshot availability, that's why I began casting it.
I eventually bought a Lee mold for 00 strings of shot, but I don't think I've ever used it. I tend to collect boolit molds. Never know when I'll want to do something and not want to wait for a mold, or maybe the molds won't be available when things get worse than they are now.
 

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I tend to collect boolit molds. Never know when I'll want to do something and not want to wait for a mold, or maybe the molds won't be available when things get worse than they are now.
Excellent point. As well as availability Lee has a bad habit of discontinuing molds about 2 years before I realize I want that particular mold. Thankfully there is ebay. I've snagged several obsolete Lee molds at MSRP or less. I get my in-production molds there as well as most of my reloading equipment. Save a lot with free shipping.

Most are new but a gently used mold is in some ways better IMO. Already seasoned.

Jim, who has a boolit mold collection himself.
 

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Re zinc slug weights: I just looked up that zinc weighs 7.13 grams per cc and lead is about 11.4 grams / cc So zinc weighs about 63% what a lead slug does. Both those numbers are pure elements, so lead with antimony or zinc alloyed with other metals will probably weigh a little different. but in any case, 437.5 grains in an ounce does give 383 grains for a 7/8 ounce lead slug, and 63% of that is about 242 grains. That is in the neighborhood of 9/16 an ounce for your 7/8 ounce lead slug mold. If you have a zinc alloy that weights more than 7.13 grams per cc then you would obviously have to recalculate the weight. I looked up copper and it is right at 9 grams per cc, or about 79% what lead weights, your 7/8 ounce mold would put out copper slugs at about 302 grains, which is real close to 11/16 of an ounce. Copper has a pretty high melting point though, you would probably need special equipment to work with its almost 2000 degree melt point. I also found that tin is 7.3 grams per cc, and it melts at a lower temperature than even lead, but is more pricey, I saw one document that said about 10$ a pound. Makes me wonder the density of tin/lead solder and if there is scrap solder that can be bought for cheap.
 

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Back when my buddy and I were casting our own bullets we used one of the NRA bullet formulas.
It called for so many pounds of lead, so much antimony, and tin.
We used wheel weights for the antimony.

Back then we bought plumbers lead from professional supply houses in hexagonal "bricks" and we often found garages that would sell or even give us wheel weights.

We figured it up and we were shooting 230 grain .45 Auto for the price of .22LR ammo, but it took a lot of time, so we quite after a few years.

I don't know of any inexpensive lead solder that's available, and you'd probably have to buy a huge amount from a manufacturer to get a good price.
I'd recommend checking the phone book for local plumbers supply houses for bulk lead, and check into the local sources of wheel weights.
Also, you can find the NRA bullet formulas online.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
I think of a rolled crimp as a one time process.
That's what I'm thinking too. The hull is changed with the roll crimp and just doesn't look reusable after it's fired. I'm a beginner at this but I'm learning fast.

I mentioned skiving, but that was because I didn't know what it was. I was hoping it would return the hull back to usable condition. I looked it up but that's just not the case. Oh well, they're still much less expensive than factory short shells when I can find them.
 

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I don't remember what it's called, but I bought a lightly used MEC sizer whose only role in life is to size the brass of shotshells. All of my used hulls got the treatment. But the roll crimp really screws up the hull. I don't see how I can even put a wad into it after one firing. I'm saving the hulls though. I've seen something about "skiving" does that return the hull back to usable condition?
I know that paper hulls can be "ironed" to return to factory-like specs and the product Spin Doctor can can used on plastic hulls to do the same. The Spin Doctor is merely a cone shaped piece of steel chucked into a drill that will friction-heat the plastic hull to return it to shape. The Spin Doctor looks like something one could make out of anything from metal to a piece of hardwood. You can see them at BallisticProduct website. I don't know if they will work on shortened hulls but if you make your own, you might be able to make one that works on any length hull.

My only experience with roll crimps is reloading 8 gauge hulls for my grandpa's shotgun. I still have the elegant reloading tools, a bunch of hulls, and a big antique glass jar of factory loads, including some brass ones he made on a lathe. I even have two original boxes the 8 ga shells came in - they are huge! . Since the last year they were loaded was 1925, the shells are at least that old. I wish I had the 8 ga shotgun itself, but he left it to my uncle.
 
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