Magtech First Defense??

Discussion in 'P-3AT' started by james__12345, May 24, 2010.

  1. james__12345

    james__12345 New Member

    165
    Dec 7, 2009
    I tried to look through all the info in the sticky but I didnt find any info on them. They are all I can find around here, other than gold saber. Does anyone know how well they expand, etc?
     
  2. oldgranpa

    oldgranpa New Member

    628
    Sep 23, 2004
    They don't expand in .380. Reason is the cavity is too small in diameter. Check the www at the bottom for a link to my ballistics test. Then browse the section for 380 tests.
     

  3. james__12345

    james__12345 New Member

    165
    Dec 7, 2009
    Thanks for the link. I looked through a TON of the post in the ammo section, I guess I just misse it in there.
     
  4. oldgranpa

    oldgranpa New Member

    628
    Sep 23, 2004
    james,
    I'm sorry, I should have given you the direct link.....

    http://usrange.org/smf/index.php?topic=316.0

    the test was done with a Sig P232 pistol, barrel length 3.5". And the bullets did not expand or only partial with a barrel that long. I was so disgusted I just used the rest of the box for target practice. I don't expect it would expand in a shorter barrel like the P3AT as there would be less velocity.

    Maybe one test like that is not fair but we did shoot 5 rounds of the stuff and the other ammo we tested expanded fine.

    You can compare the end of the MagTech 77gr copper bullet with the end of a CorBon 80gr DPX bullet and immediately see the difference.

    Anyway, hope you had fun looking at all the tests.

    Cheers,
    og
     
  5. james__12345

    james__12345 New Member

    165
    Dec 7, 2009
    Thanks for the link. I agree, I cant think of any real reason to expect it to be any better out of a shorter barrel. I was looking for the ranger stx or corbon, but the magtech is all they had.

    I test fired some goldsaber at a roadkill deer I picked up because my neighbor wanted to test the wound track of some 30-06 handloads he made me. In my experience the goldsabers didn't expand worth anything. One had two petals kicked open a little, the other one had like on petal that expanded about as well as well as that best magtech did in your pictures. I know the hair probably plugged them up a little, but I dont think that would be too much different than come types of clothing. The shots were placed into the neck, and were both found close to the skin on the opposite side. They may be a fine round, but I personally dont really trust them to expand well after that experience.

    Thanks again for the help with the link, and for all the testing you've posted for all of us.
     
  6. KelTex78

    KelTex78 New Member

    459
    Jan 10, 2009
    I'm not a fan. The expansion is marginal at best in water jug tests and abysmal in wet phone book tests.

    [​IMG]

    The sharp rim of the hollow point seems to make it prone to plugging which adversely affects expansion. The bullets above were recovered from water soaked phone books and are typical of this round in this media. A longer barreled pistol shows better expansion in water but they still perform poorly in paper. Also, Magtech ammunition doesn't seem to be very consistent as I noted a rather large spread in penetration when fired into the same media. I don't have a chronograph to check velocity but it's my impression that they are not loaded consistently.
     
  7. oldgranpa

    oldgranpa New Member

    628
    Sep 23, 2004
    great picture, KelTex, the small diameter cavity really shows up on the unfired round. A poor attempt to copy DPX.

    GoldenLoki hasn't tested the round yet. I have great confidence in his test work so hopefully he will test it and show whether it expands or not.

    Cheers,
    og
     
  8. KelTex78

    KelTex78 New Member

    459
    Jan 10, 2009
    I bought these in the height of .380 shortage as they were the only hollow-point rounds I could find. I had hoped for a DPX imitator but was extremely dissapointed. My wife's Bersa does get decent expansion in the water jug test...
    [​IMG]
    ...but the shorter barrel guns don't seem to get enough velocity to do well.

    The shape of the hollow-point also seems to lend itself to 'smiley' deformation:
    [​IMG]

    Incidentally, I got some of the same ammunition in .45 ACP and got similar results... My recommendation for .380 in a KelTec or similar pistol: Anything with a Hornady Bullet. Here's Magtech First Defense on the left, Hornady Critical Defense on the right:
    [​IMG]

    The Hornady bullet expands consistently in both water and phone books and still gets decent penetration.
     
  9. NCDmax

    NCDmax New Member

    13
    May 17, 2010
    Gracious! That's quite a difference. Thanks for the information.
     
  10. Agent-Adam

    Agent-Adam New Member

    43
    May 19, 2010
    Not all ammo is designed for these pocket rockets. That stuff would work best out of 3+" barrels like the Bersa or even better the 4" Beretta Cheetah.
     
  11. Picatinny_Pete

    Picatinny_Pete New Member

    Sep 2, 2009
    Hi,

    I was really unimpressed by the Magtech First Defense round out of a short 2.75" barrel.  Here's a picture of some short barrel tests of different rounds I did.

    [​IMG]
    The first two rounds are 380 Auto 90 gr. CCI/Speer Dots out of a P3AT, The next bullet is a 0.309 85 Gr Hornady XTP out pf a P-32  followed by a 65 gr Hydra-Shok, two 0.309 85 Gr Hornady XTP's, a 0.309 90 Gr Hornady XTP, 60 gr. 0.312 Gold Dot and the Magtech 380 Auto 77 gr SCHP.

    Shooting into 8" of water and then into wetpack.  The idea behind the test is to simulate how a bullet will react to the varying material densities in the body.   the Gold dots in 380 Expanded out to around 48-49 caliber giving about 10" of gelatin equivalent penetration.  The results with the First defense bullet were discouraging  with the bullet expanding to 0.357".  I got better expansion,  penetration from the 32 ACP Hydra shock, and the 85 grain XTP's from the P-32.  I'd avoid using the First Defense ammo in the P3AT, and stick with Gold Dots.

    Best Regards    
     
  12. TxCajun

    TxCajun Administrator Staff Member Supporter

    Sep 7, 2004
    Texas
    I believe that water gives the very maximum upset/expansion of which a round is capable (more so than ballistic gel). It is almost certainly not a realistic expectation for actual performance in body tissue. But it is fun. :)
     
  13. Picatinny_Pete

    Picatinny_Pete New Member

    Sep 2, 2009
    Hi,

    Yes, I'd have to agree that straight water will give close to the maximum expansion with a bullet. My test results though shooting through a limited amount of water and then entering immediately into wet pack really stress a bullet to the maximum, and do not tend to give maximum expansion. It does give me a good idea of how the bullet will perform, and how it might fail. The test caused jacket separations with the older non-bonded Winchester Talon, and Golden Saber rounds. The advantage to the test though is that it can be conducted in a regular 5 gallon bucket. Neither the Magtech First Defense or Guardian round expanded well out of the P3AT using the bullet test.

    Best Regards: