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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Just for a little variety I thought I'd resurrect this old bugaboo:

While the P-3AT is a wonderful compromise of power and size, should we be trying to do the same with ammo?  

While I think the DPX is a great round, I think we can all agree we wish it had a little more penetration.  Add  very much distance (across a room) or barriers, and that expansion starts to diminish.  

A strength of the .380 out of a short barrel is that at least it is capable of good penetration.  Of course, bigger is better, but would it not make sense to draw on the strength of this caliber and use a  round that maximizes the ability to penetrate rather than one that hopes to provide good expansion?

I probably would not think of debating this subject if not for the Santa Barbara round, and I think it is legitimate to bring up as it can still be found. Wetpack tests by DT Willy showed it will penetrate over 11.5 inches (equal to 17.5 inches of gelatin).  

Certainly, a HP fired up close and personal will do more damage than a FMJ, but If you need to fire your weapon at all, you probably won't be able to afford to fire it once and wait to see what happens.  If you start adding up the effects of multiple shots, it seems to me that the difference in volume of damage done by HP vs. FMJ starts to diminish.

Why not carry a round that will deliver the maximum penetration possible over a wide range of scenarios rather than a round that, while a good compromise, is just that?

Carrying Santa Barbara, I feel confident knowing the round WILL perform well regardless of circumstances, given any handgun's limitations.  

       Let the games begin!!   ::)
 

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Re: Lets take a break from peening & argue FMJ

I'll stick with JHP to the golden triangle IF a situation can't be avoided, IMO is has a better record of stopping power.

My 2 cents free of charge ;)
 

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Re: Lets take a break from peening & argue FMJ

When you discover you are riding a dead horse, the best strategy is to dismount.
However, we often try other strategies with dead horses, including the following:
Post another FMJ/JHP thread on KTOG.

This question is never going to be answered to everyones satisfaction.

Personally, I am perfectly happy to accept the .380 ACP for what it is, load it with any good JHP round, and empty the mag COM If I ever have to use it.

If 50% of them don't expand, they will penetrate further.
If the other 50% do expand, even a little, they will do much more damage then FMJ.


Moving on.........................

rcmodel
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Re: Lets take a break from peening & argue FMJ

I guess I should have made it clearer that I specifically meant the Santa Barbara round as opposed to a generic FMJ. As I said, otherwise I would not debate the issue Myself.

I was just hoping to have some fun with this as opposed to getting "dead horse" arguments that one "just is" better than the other.
 

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Re: Lets take a break from peening & argue FMJ

rcmodel said:
I wouldn't personally shoot it for SD, or otherwise, in someone elses gun, let alone in mine.
But some would.  Where's Wilson?   ;D

I still have a few hundred rounds.  I pretty much quit shooting it because I'm a wimp.  I don't really "enjoy" shooting the P3At much anyway.  It's just a tool that I use enough to remain proficient with.  The SB was taking away what little fun I was having.  It smarts!

You have to admit, that it is some stout stuff, and that flat-nosed bullet has got to do more damage than a round nose.  Of all of the SB I shot, almost all of it went bang, IIRC... rather loudly. There was one bad round. None-the--less, I think I'll hold on to it for a while yet.

 
 

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Re: Lets take a break from peening & argue FMJ

American Eagle is new, very consistent ammo and penetrates almost as well as SB. The horse WILL be dead if I shoot it with AE.

What if your whole mag of hollowpoints DOES expand, but only causes shallow wounds?

Packer.
 

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Re: Lets take a break from peening & argue FMJ

If he shot the mag at me, I'm leaving the area ASAP. ;D
 

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Re: Lets take a break from peening & argue FMJ

Packer:
You continue to talk like a .380 JHP is going to blow up on the skin surface or something.

8" of penetration is more then halfway through even a very fat BG in this part of the country.
That is exactly where the heart & lungs reside.

If I dump 7 rounds of JHP COM, I am going to be dealing with a very dead BG at some point in his very immediate future!

But I digress.
Deja Vu of dead horses all over again!


rcmodel
 

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Re: Lets take a break from peening & argue FMJ

Two Pistol Packer said:
  American Eagle is new, very consistent ammo and penetrates almost as well as SB. The horse WILL be dead if I shoot it with AE.

  What if your whole mag of hollowpoints DOES expand, but only causes shallow wounds?

Packer.
Beating and kicking that horse ;D

Just how far behind the chest are the heart and lungs, people have been downed by 4'' blades.

7 COM .380 expanded rounds will down ya period IF it takes that many. Surley these silly hollow points will penetrate 4-6'' right?

And I'm not trying to start trouble, just beatin the horse and havin fun doin it :D
 
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Re: Lets take a break from peening & argue FMJ

Two Pistol Packer said:
  American Eagle is new, very consistent ammo and penetrates almost as well as SB. The horse WILL be dead if I shoot it with AE.

  What if your whole mag of hollowpoints DOES expand, but only causes shallow wounds?

Packer.
what if that fmj went all the way through the bg and hit a nun walking down the street? You would feel really bad, I bet.

just trying to add alittle humor to the grave of the dead horse. ;D
 
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Re: Lets take a break from peening & argue FMJ

I've beaten that dead horse too. I've almost been chastised by TxC for some 'heated' debate over those threads as well. So, I'm leaving this one alone.

Oh, what the heck..............................except to say, I always use fmj in anything less than 9mm out of a barrel less than 4".
 

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Re: Lets take a break from peening & argue FMJ

FD,

This must mean I'm under gunned with my 9mm Gold Dot's in 3.9'' barrel ???

I've not done any research on any thing below .380 ballistics but FMJ in .32 or 22lr sounds like it would be the way to go.


Can we stop beating this horse it's really stating to smell :eek:
 
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Re: Lets take a break from peening & argue FMJ

Rubb said:
FD,

This must mean I'm under gunned with my 9mm Gold Dot's in 3.9'' barrel ???
Not under gunned in my opinion, I said for me anything below 9mm in less than 4" barrel.
 

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Re: Lets take a break from peening & argue FMJ

Rubb said:
. Surley these silly hollow points will penetrate 4-6'' right?

And I'm not trying to start trouble, just beatin the horse and havin fun doin it :D
The fallacy here is that you are equating 7-8 inches of JELLO to the hard bone and muscle of a human body.

The Jello represents soft tissue. Can you point to an area of the body that has only soft tissue for the bullet to encounter? When your hollow points flatten on a rib or breast bone, is the BG really going to stop?

I'm not betting MY life on shooting the pilsbury dough boy.

Packer.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Re: Lets take a break from peening & argue FMJ

[quote author=Two Pistol Packer link=board=104;num=1176581528;start=15#15 date=04/14/07 at 16:59:37]

  The fallacy here is that you are equating 7-8 inches of JELLO to the hard bone and muscle of a human body.

  I guess that's my main point:  If you count on 8 inches of soft tissue penetration, what if anything else gets in the way?  If shot placement is the number one criteria, why not make sure that your well-placed shot is going to count for the most?

As far as overpenetration, If the hoodies are after me in church,   I'll bet a few of those nuns will be packin' too! Seriously, I would suspect most shootings occur when the BG has you alone.
 

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Re: Lets take a break from peening & argue FMJ

Rib bones don't offer much resistance.
The chest is mostly full of lungs.
And lungs are mostly full of air and blood.

The parts that aren't full of air are the liver and heart, and they are also full of blood.

There is no Jello involved at all near as I can tell.


rcmodel
 
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Re: Lets take a break from peening & argue FMJ

Ok , I apologize for the nun joke but here is another what if: What if that fmj went through the BG and hit Jesse Jackson or Al sharpton picketing in front of CBS building, would you.

1. feel bad?
2. shoot again for effect?
3. would you rather had shot the nun?
4. would u sue Amerrican eagle for a hot round?
5. would u receive the CMH award for doing what 99% of the people would like to do?
6 or would u be a "dead man walking"?
7 or all of the above
 
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