[cclem700]

Can someone explain to me the purpose of a laser sight? I'm not being scarcastic(for once) just curious. My thoughts are kinda leaning towards it gives the "other guy" something to aim at and the pistol IMO is really intended for such a close range you'd have to be blind as a bat to miss. Would it not be better to just practice shooting skill at close range than to learn to rely on a laser to aim for you? I'm all into the gadgets but this laser sight thing has me a bit skeptical. I hope nobody gets PO'd over this post, I just want some good feedback to consider. After all, I could just buy a twin for a tad more $$$

 

[JerryO]

Can someone explain to me the purpose of a laser sight?  

the pistol IMO is really intended for such a close range you'd have to be blind as a bat to miss.

 Would it not be better to just practice shooting skill at close range than to learn to rely on a laser to aim for you?

 After all, I could just buy a twin for a tad more $$$

? The laser is intended to help in dim light where the sights are hard to imposible to use. It also becomes easy to hold the postol around a doorway and see the point of aim (ie the dot).

Blind as a bat is just right. Turn off the lights and take aim. If you had a laser, you could follow the point of impact without even looking at the pistol.

Practice is always good. Have you practiced a lot around a doorway or at night? Most of us need all the help we can get.

And if you get that twin P3AT, then you will need two lasers to go with them.


JerryO

 

[TxCajun]

Thoroughly discussed here:

http://www.ktog.org/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=104;action=display;num=1156555154;start=0#0

 

[cuda340dbb]

The primary reason I believe is that there is no distinquishable sights on the weapon so it either has to have the 3 dots for sighting and thats not ez for this weapon and the armalaser are far superior to use.

 

[cclem700]

Thoroughly discussed here:

http://www.ktog.org/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=104;action=display;num=1156555154;start=0#0

Thanks Tx, Iguess some people like it and some don't(goes for anything) I don't feel the need to argue or discuss any training I may or may not have( I musthave missed the "Shooting around corners in the dark with a BUG class&quot<---slight jab So I'll leave this one alone. but thanks all who gave input ;D

 

[fatman]

Drivelane: As I understand your position, you feel that you will not ever use your pistol at other than point shooting range. You are probably right as most encounters are at close quarters. At such close range the BG certainly will know where you are if he initiated the encounter and since neither of you will be aiming the laser is not a liability. In any case with the Armalaser you have the option of turning it off with the on/off switch at the bottom.

If your assumption is wrong about the range at which the BG initiates the encounter and you need to use sighted fire, the laser is of enormous value especially in the poor light conditions where such encounters usually happen.

In the armed citizen column of the American Rifleman they say that in the majority of cases where a firearm is used to stop an attack, shots don't have to be fired as the BG will break off the attack when confronted by an armed citizen who is willing and prepared to use deadly force. In the majority of these cases I'm sure the citizen used a gun larger and more visible than a small KT.

I have Armalasers on two of the KT P32s often carried by the women of my family. I feel it adds a lot to the intimidation value of these tiny guns and certainly they have shown that they shoot them better with the laser on than without. They practice a lot shooting the gun from the retention position at close range and also from waist level with one hand. Again, they are prepared to use deadly force and don't expect the sight of the gun to stop the attack but understand that breaking off the attack without shots fired is the optimal outcome.

I am very fond of lasers as a training aid in addition to being a fighting tool. The Armalaser on the small KTs has been very useful in teaching users not to put the trigger finger into the trigger guard untill the gun is lining up on the target. If they do put their finger into the guard, the instant on switch of the Armalaser turns it on and reveals the error. It has also been of great value in dry fire training in presenting the gun. A lot of this type of training can be done in the home which allows a lot more time for training than would be practical using live fire. Since the ladies train with lasers they will be comfortable useing them to fight if necessary.
(They also train useing the iron sights and point shooting without the laser but prefer to use it.)

The Armalaser is not perfect by any means but it gives one the option of a little extra edge and sometimes that is the difference between life and death.

I respect your reservations about lasers as I also resisted useing them for several years. It was only when I began training my daughter with a Crimson Trace laser on her S&W 642 that I realized the value of it. Remember, with the Armalaser as with the Crimson Trace, there is an on/off switch so in any situation you have a choice to use or not. What is wrong with that?

 

[KelTec_Dick]

Amen, what he said. A laser on the BG's head can sometimes be just as effective as a bullet through the BG's head!

 

[Bobo]

This is my stock answer to the original poster's question...

I really like my ArmaLaser a lot!!!

Here's why:
1. I'm on target faster.
2. I'm more accurate.
3. It's better and faster than iron sights in low light and especially in the dark.
4. I can shoot from almost any body position with either hand or both hands and still maintain accuracy.
5. It's as fast as point shooting, but much more accurate.
6. My head doesn't have to be in line or level with the gun.
7. I can see peripherally much better.
8. Wearing multi-focal eyeglasses requires acquiring the correct focal portion of the glasses as well as acquiring sight alignment and sight picture (I wear trifocals). Not necessary with the laser.
9. With some multi-focal eyeglass wearers if the sights are in focus the target isn't or visa-versa. The laser requires only viewing the target and not the gun.
10. The laser helps with trigger pull and natural pointing during dry fire and hot fire practice.
11. The iron sights are still there if you want them.
12. The gun prints less like a gun in pocket carry.

If that's not enough reasons I can come up with a few more!!

This is my review on the ArmaLaser:
http://www.ktrange.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=4522

To those that are detractors and haven't actually tried it, all I can say is - "Don't knock it 'til you've tried it"! ;D

 

[cclem700]

Drivelane:  As I understand your position, you feel that you will not ever use your pistol at other than point shooting range.  You are probably right as most encounters are at close quarters.  At such close range the BG certainly will know where you are if he initiated the encounter and since neither of you will be aiming the laser is not a liability.  In any case with the Armalaser you have the option of turning it off with the on/off switch at the bottom.

If your assumption is wrong about the range at which the BG initiates the encounter and you need to use sighted fire, the laser is of enormous  value especially in the poor light conditions where such encounters usually happen.

In the armed citizen column of the American Rifleman they say that in the majority of cases where a firearm is used to stop an attack, shots don't have to be fired as the BG will break off the attack when confronted by an armed citizen who is willing and prepared to use deadly force. In the majority of these cases I'm sure the citizen used a gun larger and more visible than a small KT.

I have Armalasers on two of the KT P32s often carried by the women of my family.  I feel it adds a lot to the intimidation value of these tiny guns and certainly they have shown that they shoot them better with the laser on than without.  They practice a lot shooting the gun from the retention position at close range and also from waist level with one hand.  Again, they are prepared to use deadly force and don't expect the sight of the gun to stop the attack but understand that breaking off the attack without shots fired is the optimal outcome.

I am very fond of lasers as a training aid in addition to being a fighting tool.  The Armalaser on the small KTs has been very useful in teaching users not to put the trigger finger into the trigger guard untill the gun is lining up on the target.  If they do put their finger into the guard, the instant on switch of the Armalaser turns it on and reveals the error.  It has also been of great value in dry fire training in presenting the gun.  A lot of this type of training can be done in the home which allows a lot more time for training than would be practical using live fire.  Since the ladies train with lasers they will be comfortable useing them to fight if necessary.
(They also train useing the iron sights and point shooting without the laser but prefer to use it.)

The Armalaser is not perfect by any means but it gives one the option of a little extra edge and sometimes that is the difference between life and death.

I respect your reservations about lasers as I also resisted useing them for several years.  It was only when I began training my daughter with a Crimson Trace laser on her S&W 642 that I realized the value of it.  Remember, with the Armalaser as with the Crimson Trace, there is an on/off switch so in any situation you have a choice to use or not.  What is wrong with that?

Thanks fatman, I understand your points. And believe me, I am not closed minded on the topic. I went to the range today and tried thiers out, it was kinda neat, but I found myself focusing on the bright red light more than the target. I also use a 3 point aim (chest, head, pelvis) and found that for me personally, just looking(not using sights at all) at my objective was more efficient (faster shot and faster re-aquisition) Maybe because I was taught without it..... I can see where it might help some people though, I'm sure they sell tons and I really would rather an inexperienced shooter follow that red light than chance hitting one of my family members by accident. All this said, I think I might be buying one for my target rifle, with the scope and a red dot to focus on at 100+ yards IS COOL!

In case anyone is interested, I did buy some Gold dots and SXT's today. The gel is setting up so I'm going to do a little testing tomorrow to figure out which one I like. I'm not a scientist but did make the 10% gel matter. If I can get some kind of expansion and 5+" from 7-10' I'll have a winner. Most of the threads I have read favored these two, and the DPX(is on order). But, when I spoke to Cor-bon, they did say the DPX was a little bit hot for a KT > No Biggie, I know the SXT's are nice in my Glock so we'll see what happens ???

 

[z71bill]

"the DPX was a little bit hot for a KT"

I thought that Cor-Bon used the P-3AT in the development of the DPX round.

Although the foot pounds of energy is not a perfect measure of stopping power - it seems like it is a very good way to evaluate how hot a load is -

Not a munitions or physics expert - but it seems like the pounds of force at the muzzle (between two loads) would be a perfect way to compare felt recoil / or how hot a load is. Is this line of thinking off base? Can a round with a smaller amount of energy at the muzzle have a larger kick Vs a round with a larger number of foot pounds (fired from the same gun)?

The DPX is 196 FT pounds - same as the Gold Dot and actually less than an American Eagle FMJ (at 203) and far less than a Winchester Ranger T (at 211).

The P-3AT is rated for UP to 250 foot pounds at the muzzle - why would Cor-Bon feel it is too hot?

 

[cclem700]

They told me"Although it is withing SAAMI specs, I would not recommend using them except as a carry load" So, I decided I like my Kel Tec and if the manufacturer says I can't use a lot of them, I just chose to go another route. If I become adimate about big holes, I'll carry my 10MM. I was just passing on information given to me by a tech at CorBon ;D I'm sure the DPX is a great carry load, and ordered a box for myself, I don't know that I will carry them until someone else puts a few hundred through thier's. They used a KT during R&D, but I am sure they used others as well. The DPX is not engineered specifically for the KT 8)

 

[TxCajun]

 But, when I spoke to Cor-bon, they did say the DPX was a little bit hot for a KT  >  

Gotta call BS on that.  Mike from Corbon posts here from to time and confirmed that the 380 DPX round was developed EXCLISIVELY with the P3AT... a pair, actually   :-/

Edited to add that between here and the Kel-tec Range, there have been numerous ballistics testing (wet packs) involving Corbon DPX and the P3AT.  Many hundreds of rounds were used and doubtless many thousands of DPXs have been sent down range by a P3AT.

 

[JerryO]

"the DPX was a little bit hot for a KT"

Although the foot pounds of energy is not a perfect measure of stopping power - it seems like it is a very good way to evaluate how hot a load is -

Not a munitions or physics  expert - but it seems like the pounds of force at the muzzle  (between two loads) would be a perfect way to compare felt recoil / or how hot a load is.  Is this line of thinking off base? Can a round with a smaller amount of energy at the muzzle have a larger kick Vs a round with a larger number of foot pounds (fired from the same gun)?

The DPX is 196 FT pounds - same as the Gold Dot and actually less than an American Eagle FMJ (at 203) and far less than a Winchester Ranger T (at 211).

The P-3AT is rated for UP to 250 foot pounds at the muzzle - why would Cor-Bon feel it is too hot?  

I think momentum is a better measure and that it is mathmaticly related to recoil. Energy is not.

But, keep in mind different guns have different weaknesses. A m1 garand seems to be sensitive to pressure at the gas port.

Chamber pressure could be the limit.

But pounding of the parts in a P3AT ought to be most related to the mometum.

And I can tell where my P3AT is pointing if I reach around a corner with its laser on. I don't have to see the sights. And it works even though I have only a slight amount of practice shooting this way. But of course you missed it as you didn't have a laser!!!


JerryO

 

[cclem700]

Gotta call BS on that.  Mike from Corbon posts here from to time and confirmed that the 380 DPX round was developed EXCLISIVELY with the P3AT...  a pair, actually   :-/

Edited to add that between here and the Kel-tec Range, there have been numerous ballistics testing (wet packs) involving Corbon DPX and the P3AT.  Many hundreds of rounds were used and doubtless many thousands of DPXs have been sent down range by a P3AT.

Okay, Call BS :-/  So If we should believe everything we hear from a co. rep. I suppose I should be carrying RBCD in my .380, they used a KEL TEC Too :(But I have seen for myself that it (RBCD) does NOTexpand in small callibers.  I have to see it to believe it and ammo manufacturers are really good salesmen.  Like I said, I will test it myself and I am sure thousands and thousands of people will buy .380 DPX.  Just not me.  I'm not much of a politician, and nobody here knows me in person, but I don't waste my time trying to BS when it comes to protection.  I will share what I see and hear, but will not fabricate anything to please or hurt anyone.  I'll leave that to the Politicians. 8)

 

[raybsc]

I plan soon to have a laser for my P3AT, and that is a personal preference.
My other p3AT will not.
However, I have tried every .380 ammo I can get and although I don't use the "hot" rounds day in and day out, I fired some of them to check feeding and feel.
Never had a problem with any of them, including cor-bon.
I agree with everyone on this one because everyone has good ideas and experiences.
I am really glad all of us are individuals, and can get along so well. ;D ;D ;D :

 

[cclem700]

"And I can tell where my P3AT is pointing if I reach around a corner with its laser on. I don't have to see the sights. And it works even though I have only a slight amount of practice shooting this way. But of course you missed it as you didn't have a laser!!! "

*cough cough* If I am around the corner from an assailant, I believe I can start a retreat(best way to avoid the civil lawsuit for killing the poor guy who was just oppressed :) Now, if it is in my house I'm using an 870 (sorry to my KT, I love the lil guy) and odds are he/she is not getting into the house before I can get into a pre-planned defensive position. I think the Germans were the first to develop a weapon that shot around corners, but that was for urban warfare, not home defense. just my .02(if it's worth .02?)

 

[TxCajun]

Driveland:  I'm not necessarrily calling BS on you, just on the statement that DPX is not recommended for the P3AT.  We all know better as it's been tested to death and well proven around here by several of our own pepople as well as some pros including, like him or not, Evan Marshall.

My information is not just from the Corbon folks although they have confirmed that the round was indeed developed with the P3AT.  I'm sure they shot plenty through other guns but it is designed for short barreled pistols.  What better candidate in 380 acp is there?  The P3AT is by far and away the most popular short barreled 380 (period).  Now I agree with you about the RBCD.  They been busted and debunked by most of the industry.  It is simply a smaller, faster bullet, nothing novel although by now they're probably claiming that it's made from depleted uranium or something.   :

But, use whatever you like.  Freedom of choice!  Out forefathers fought for your right to choose your own ammo.  Regarding lasers, it's a personal preference as well.  Undeniably, they certainly have some very valid applications.

 

 

[fatman]

Drivelane:
I think the principal argument for not shooting a lot of Corbon DPX in a Kel-Tec is the cost. I doubt that most of us could afford to shoot enough of it to damage our guns. I have shot 40 rounds of it to date and have decided to use it as my carry load based on the wet pack tests mentioned in this forum.

I urge you not to take TxCajun's statement personally. He felt your source was BS but that was not an attack on you. It is our differences of opinion that makes this forum such a valuable resource. Sometimes those differences hit a nerve but that is just part of the give and take.

In regard to your evaluation of a laser on the range, I'm not at all surprised. I have been there and done that. Experienced shooters do have to work with the lasers for a little while to get used to it. You are correct in your belief that new shooters get more immediate benefit from the laser than those with a lot of experience but almost all of us will find it helpful if we will just work with it a while.

As to wear and tear on the Kel-Tecs, I have been told by techs. at Kel-Tec that the Santa Barbara ammo used by many members of this forum is not recommended for their guns. In spite of this members of the forum have fired several thousands of rounds of SB ammo with no problem. I doubt that Corbon DPX is hotter than SB so I am comfortable in using it for my carry load since I will never be able to afford to shoot even 500 rounds of it in practice.

 

[cclem700]

THX Tex and Cajun, and I will tell you, RBCD is a lot of fun in my 10mm, but due to reliability and experienced failed primers(about 10% based on my 200 rounds) I choose not to trust my life or my families on it. Mainly use it to blow up water jugs now. That was an expensive lesson and I guess I am very apprehensive about trying any more "exotic" ammo. I am going to do gel tests today and hope I can get my hands on DPX before this afternoon, I only have 2 blocks ready and have a hard time waiting to shoot Gel ;D If anyone has any requests, I'll try to honor them as far as testing goes, but I am not a scientist so I won't be pulling out a micrometer to check exact expansion. 4 layers of Wrangler 20x denim and 7' from target is about as technical as I get. I do have powrball that I am going to check out but it doesn't excite me much as there have been A LOT of people showing me the terrible seperation and appears to be like shooting a lead bb at 1000fps : I'll take some pics if you like and try to post them(new to this) SXT's and GD's are my main focus just to see expansion in a reliable medium. I couldn't find andy fed hydroshocks except low recoil so I decided to leave those alone. I am open to any suggestions before this afternoon. Thx again all, you are a great resource! I won't be using a laser to do the gel test

 

[z71bill]

JerryO

Something in  head keeps coming back to equal but opposite force.

Momentum  is the product of the mass and velocity of an object.

Mass (weight of the bullet) and velocity (speed of the bullet) are the two things that DETERMINE the foot pounds of energy at the muzzle.

I agree that it is momentum that determines recoil. Which must be relative to the amount of foot pounds at the muzzle. Can a bullet that has more momentum (than another) have a smaller amount of foot pounds of energy?

I was trying to find a way to determine which load has the most force - so you could compare things like - how much wear it would have on a gun -   how much recoil will you feel.

BTW - if someone shoots so much that they wear out their gun - I would see that as a good thing.