Maximum effort.
KT P50
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5 pages of NOT statements that "Most departments have "de-rostered" the round due to it being ineffective for terminal stopping power."My pleasure.
Five pages of bashing 5.7, lol!
"03-04-2011
Five Seven as a duty weapon? - Police Forums & Law Enforcement Forums @ Officer.com
The title says it all. Anything related to firearms is spoken here.forum.officer.com
A neighboring agency uses semi-auto only P90s as their squad long guns, and they hate them and they hate that round. They needed something to go through soft armor, but the city council thought that M4s were too scary looking and that .223 rounds could blow up vehicles. They also didn't trust patrol officers with select-fire, hence the semi-auto only. Based on what they've told me about their dissatisfaction with the 5.7FN round, I would never take a chance at carrying one on duty."
I'd very much appreciate if you'd name at least one US non-SWAT LE entity that currently uses 5.7x28 round on daily bases.
Look, I get that you don't like the round. I get that you don't think it's appropriate for "social work." You made the claim that it was de-rostered. It was rostered/approved and then removed. And you specified that it was because of it "being ineffective for terminal stopping power." Now, if you would prefer to modify that to "I've heard back-channel talk that it may be de-rostered due to it being ineffective for terminal stopping power" that would be fine too. But don't drop statements of fact if you can't point to support for the statement. Notice that I didn't make my claim as a statement of fact. In point, I told you to treat it as gossip if you wanted. Heck, it came to me as "a little birdie told me" from insiders I trust. You don't have to trust me to trust them. Whatever.
But 5 pages of hate doesn't support your claim of derostering due to ineffectiveness for terminal stopping power.
And for the record, I don't own a 5.7 chambered anything. I probably won't. I think it's kinda an interesting cartridge but I'm too cheap to buy new ammo for it and reloading for it is too fiddly. I'll stick with my 9's and, if I ever decide I need to penetrate soft armor with a handgun, well...
I just dislike squishy arguments that aren't well backed up.
Maybe you should switch to "most cops I know don't want the 5.7 chambered guns because of perceived issues surrounding it being ineffective for terminal stopping power." That'd work better.
Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
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134 Posts
Nobody was shooting back, fish in a barrel.
With the right ammo it's not as anemic as some claim, and shot placement trumps all. 50rd on the gun and low recoil gives you more opportunity for multiple good hits. Don't buy a 5.7 for defense unless you at least go with FN red box, if not Gold Dot or Elite/Vanguard.
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372 Posts
That's my thoughts exactly. I probably won't buy the P50, but I have bought five Kel-Tecs in the last three years because I am now a fanboy and proud to tell people I am because of their innovation.
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134 Posts
Gossips? Five pages of clearly negative feedbacks straight from the active LE officers? Really?5 pages of NOT statements that "Most departments have "de-rostered" the round due to it being ineffective for terminal stopping power."
Look, I get that you don't like the round. I get that you don't think it's appropriate for "social work." You made the claim that it was de-rostered. It was rostered/approved and then removed. And you specified that it was because of it "being ineffective for terminal stopping power." Now, if you would prefer to modify that to "I've heard back-channel talk that it may be de-rostered due to it being ineffective for terminal stopping power" that would be fine too. But don't drop statements of fact if you can't point to support for the statement. Notice that I didn't make my claim as a statement of fact. In point, I told you to treat it as gossip if you wanted. Heck, it came to me as "a little birdie told me" from insiders I trust. You don't have to trust me to trust them. Whatever.
But 5 pages of hate doesn't support your claim of derostering due to ineffectiveness for terminal stopping power.
And for the record, I don't own a 5.7 chambered anything. I probably won't. I think it's kinda an interesting cartridge but I'm too cheap to buy new ammo for it and reloading for it is too fiddly. I'll stick with my 9's and, if I ever decide I need to penetrate soft armor with a handgun, well...
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I just dislike squishy arguments that aren't well backed up.
Maybe you should switch to "most cops I know don't want the 5.7 chambered guns because of perceived issues surrounding it being ineffective for terminal stopping power." That'd work better.
Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
Again, please name at least one US non-SWAT LE entity that is using 5.7x28 as their duty round. I am saying "non-SWAT", because those guys often buy all kind of toys on taxpayers' expense just because they can.
I couldn't find "the official" list of small arms used by US LE except this one:
Law enforcement in the United States - Wikipedia, but I hope this will do the trick.
Also...
List of equipment of the Israel Defense Forces - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
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134 Posts
Yep. The deadly results achieved at Ft. Hood still don't make the 5.7 a good SD choice, just like the Bella Twin or Sirhan Sirhan examples don't make the .22 a good SD choice.
Forensic experts testify to victims' suffering in Fort Hood rampage
Forensic experts testified in graphic detail on Thursday how soldiers suffered when they were shot by an army psychiatrist who has admitted opening fire at a Texas military base in 2009 because he switched sides in what he considered a U.S. war on Islam.
www.reuters.com
It was “not an immediately fatal wound,” Berran said.
Berran is one of several expert witnesses who have testified this week about crime scene evidence and autopsy analyses of roughly 10 of the 13 victims who were sprayed with bullets, some shot while they were on the floor or elsewhere."
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4,737 Posts
Sloppy argument. Read for comprehension.
None of which supports your claim that "Most departments have "de-rostered" the round due to it being ineffective for terminal stopping power."
No I won't. Because I never made any such claim, I see no particular reason to try to defend it.
Now, I'm asking you again to show documents from > 50% of the U.S. police departments which show that they have "'de-rostered' the round due to it being ineffective for terminal stopping power." That's your claim. And you haven't even shown one or two examples, never mind something which would be indicative of "most," you just referenced, in your own words, "5 pages of hate." So what? Maybe the round is terrible. Maybe it sucks more than the Milky Way's central black hole. But that doesn't track to your claim that "Most departments have "de-rostered" the round due to it being ineffective for terminal stopping power."
I hate sloppy thinking.
I don't want to get drawn into this discussion, but my 2 cents are this:
The effectiveness of a round has everything to do with the velocity, shape, and mass of the projectile. You can't really change the velocity or mass of a given caliber much, but the projectile shape and construction can be improved.... The 22WMR was also considered not good for self defense, then the PMR30 came about and then shortly after loads that used specifically designed bullets were introduced to make it a better option for self defense.
The 5.7x28 is in the same boat, and in the near future, it is likely we will see better bullets and loadings for self defense. If there is a demand for it, it will get made. So perhaps the 5.7 is not that great for self defense right now, but the future has yet to be written, and there is certainly potential for it to get better.
The effectiveness of a round has everything to do with the velocity, shape, and mass of the projectile. You can't really change the velocity or mass of a given caliber much, but the projectile shape and construction can be improved.... The 22WMR was also considered not good for self defense, then the PMR30 came about and then shortly after loads that used specifically designed bullets were introduced to make it a better option for self defense.
The 5.7x28 is in the same boat, and in the near future, it is likely we will see better bullets and loadings for self defense. If there is a demand for it, it will get made. So perhaps the 5.7 is not that great for self defense right now, but the future has yet to be written, and there is certainly potential for it to get better.
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134 Posts
They used P90 SMG, not PS90 semi-auto carbine, loaded with SS190 AP. Wasn't their primary weapon, though. Then, they tossed it.
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134 Posts
EXP-556 Pistol - Mk 1-The Lightest 5.56 pistol in the world
EXP-556 Pistol - Mk 1 - The lightest 5.56mm pistol in the world! Fun, Lightweight, and Extremely affordable! Proudly manufactured in the USA
www.newfrontierarmory.com
vs.
P50 - KelTec
www.keltecweapons.com
Hmm... Let me guess which one should I grab...
PLR16 & Braces - Current info request
Yes, I have searched the forum and yes I have found threads about this but the info is dated 2013-ish and the ATF has gone back and forth this issue several times since... Does anyone have updated and current information on the ATF and braces on the PLR16? Specifically, can you add the Keltec...
www.thektog.org
Well at least people would be making fun of your ExTard plastic blaster instead of your caliber choice...2.98 lbs in proven and versatile 5.56 NATOEXP-556 Pistol - Mk 1-The Lightest 5.56 pistol in the world
EXP-556 Pistol - Mk 1 - The lightest 5.56mm pistol in the world! Fun, Lightweight, and Extremely affordable! Proudly manufactured in the USA
vs.
3.2 lbs in silly 5.7x28P50 - KelTec
Hmm... Let me guess which one should I grab...
PLR16 & Braces - Current info request
Yes, I have searched the forum and yes I have found threads about this but the info is dated 2013-ish and the ATF has gone back and forth this issue several times since... Does anyone have updated and current information on the ATF and braces on the PLR16? Specifically, can you add the Keltec...
Neither of those would be my first choice. If i had to grab one long(er) gun it would be my 300blk SBR with Barnes 110gr.
Unless of course i need to start poking holes in tougher armor...
Joined
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134 Posts
Making fun of plastic 3.4 lbs PLR16 yet?
No point in comparing empty weights....Unless you plan on throwing them at your target.2.98 lbs in proven and versatile 5.56 NATOEXP-556 Pistol - Mk 1-The Lightest 5.56 pistol in the world
EXP-556 Pistol - Mk 1 - The lightest 5.56mm pistol in the world! Fun, Lightweight, and Extremely affordable! Proudly manufactured in the USA
vs.
3.2 lbs in silly 5.7x28P50 - KelTec
Hmm... Let me guess which one should I grab...
PLR16 & Braces - Current info request
Yes, I have searched the forum and yes I have found threads about this but the info is dated 2013-ish and the ATF has gone back and forth this issue several times since... Does anyone have updated and current information on the ATF and braces on the PLR16? Specifically, can you add the Keltec...
Loaded 30 round Pmag = 1.1 pounds
Loaded 50 round P90 mag = 1.0 pounds
Therefore:
4.1 pounds for 30 round pistol in 5.56 NATO = 700 ft-lbs x 30 rounds = 21,000 ft-lbs of total ammo energy
vs
4.2 pounds for 50 rounds 5.7x28 = 400 ft-lbs x 50 rounds = 20,000 ft-lbs total ammo energy
So the 5.56 pistol does have a 5% total energy advantage over the P50. P50 will have less recoil (due to the caliber, and slight increase in weight), and more rounds per mag, so hit probability will likely be higher which can easily make up that 5% in the real world.
References:
BBTI - Ballistics by the Inch :: .223 Rifle Results
(statement of intent)
www.ballisticsbytheinch.com
Just How Powerful IS 5.7x28mm?
Just how powerful IS 5.7x28mm? Some people seem to think it's a new standard in personal protection rounds. Is it though? Read on....
www.usacarry.com
If i saw anyone carrying one as their primary defensive weapon, then yes, i would be laughing a little, at least on the inside.Making fun of plastic 3.4 lbs PLR16 yet?
Can't remember where I heard this:
M4 is what you take to a gunfight.
P90 is what you take to work in case there is a gunfight.
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134 Posts
P90 is an SMG and it's 5.6 lbs - out of discussing category.
Neither P50 or PLR 16 would make an ideal PDW; however...
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