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My pleasure.
Five pages of bashing 5.7, lol!

"03-04-2011
A neighboring agency uses semi-auto only P90s as their squad long guns, and they hate them and they hate that round. They needed something to go through soft armor, but the city council thought that M4s were too scary looking and that .223 rounds could blow up vehicles. They also didn't trust patrol officers with select-fire, hence the semi-auto only. Based on what they've told me about their dissatisfaction with the 5.7FN round, I would never take a chance at carrying one on duty."

I'd very much appreciate if you'd name at least one US non-SWAT LE entity that currently uses 5.7x28 round on daily bases.
5 pages of NOT statements that "Most departments have "de-rostered" the round due to it being ineffective for terminal stopping power."

Look, I get that you don't like the round. I get that you don't think it's appropriate for "social work." You made the claim that it was de-rostered. It was rostered/approved and then removed. And you specified that it was because of it "being ineffective for terminal stopping power." Now, if you would prefer to modify that to "I've heard back-channel talk that it may be de-rostered due to it being ineffective for terminal stopping power" that would be fine too. But don't drop statements of fact if you can't point to support for the statement. Notice that I didn't make my claim as a statement of fact. In point, I told you to treat it as gossip if you wanted. Heck, it came to me as "a little birdie told me" from insiders I trust. You don't have to trust me to trust them. Whatever.

But 5 pages of hate doesn't support your claim of derostering due to ineffectiveness for terminal stopping power.

And for the record, I don't own a 5.7 chambered anything. I probably won't. I think it's kinda an interesting cartridge but I'm too cheap to buy new ammo for it and reloading for it is too fiddly. I'll stick with my 9's and, if I ever decide I need to penetrate soft armor with a handgun, well...



I just dislike squishy arguments that aren't well backed up.

Maybe you should switch to "most cops I know don't want the 5.7 chambered guns because of perceived issues surrounding it being ineffective for terminal stopping power." That'd work better.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
 
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The P50 is another example of why I'm a Kel-Tec fanboy. I love the innovation and creativity, and I love how they design firearms that firearms enthusiasts want to buy.
That's my thoughts exactly. I probably won't buy the P50, but I have bought five Kel-Tecs in the last three years because I am now a fanboy and proud to tell people I am because of their innovation.
 

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5 pages of NOT statements that "Most departments have "de-rostered" the round due to it being ineffective for terminal stopping power."

Look, I get that you don't like the round. I get that you don't think it's appropriate for "social work." You made the claim that it was de-rostered. It was rostered/approved and then removed. And you specified that it was because of it "being ineffective for terminal stopping power." Now, if you would prefer to modify that to "I've heard back-channel talk that it may be de-rostered due to it being ineffective for terminal stopping power" that would be fine too. But don't drop statements of fact if you can't point to support for the statement. Notice that I didn't make my claim as a statement of fact. In point, I told you to treat it as gossip if you wanted. Heck, it came to me as "a little birdie told me" from insiders I trust. You don't have to trust me to trust them. Whatever.

But 5 pages of hate doesn't support your claim of derostering due to ineffectiveness for terminal stopping power.

And for the record, I don't own a 5.7 chambered anything. I probably won't. I think it's kinda an interesting cartridge but I'm too cheap to buy new ammo for it and reloading for it is too fiddly. I'll stick with my 9's and, if I ever decide I need to penetrate soft armor with a handgun, well...



I just dislike squishy arguments that aren't well backed up.

Maybe you should switch to "most cops I know don't want the 5.7 chambered guns because of perceived issues surrounding it being ineffective for terminal stopping power." That'd work better.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
Gossips? Five pages of clearly negative feedbacks straight from the active LE officers? Really?
Again, please name at least one US non-SWAT LE entity that is using 5.7x28 as their duty round. I am saying "non-SWAT", because those guys often buy all kind of toys on taxpayers' expense just because they can.
I couldn't find "the official" list of small arms used by US LE except this one:
Law enforcement in the United States - Wikipedia, but I hope this will do the trick.
Also...
 

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Nobody was shooting back, fish in a barrel.
With the right ammo it's not as anemic as some claim, and shot placement trumps all. 50rd on the gun and low recoil gives you more opportunity for multiple good hits. Don't buy a 5.7 for defense unless you at least go with FN red box, if not Gold Dot or Elite/Vanguard.
Yep. The deadly results achieved at Ft. Hood still don't make the 5.7 a good SD choice, just like the Bella Twin or Sirhan Sirhan examples don't make the .22 a good SD choice.
"A pathologist, Lt. Col. Phillip Berran, told Hasan’s court-martial on Thursday that one soldier who tried to charge and stop Hasan was shot 12 times while another, Pfc Aaron Nemelka, 19, the youngest military victim of the attack, suffered intensely as his organs filled with blood.
It was “not an immediately fatal wound,” Berran said.
Berran is one of several expert witnesses who have testified this week about crime scene evidence and autopsy analyses of roughly 10 of the 13 victims who were sprayed with bullets, some shot while they were on the floor or elsewhere."
 

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Sloppy argument. Read for comprehension.

Five pages of clearly negative feedbacks straight from the active LE officers? Really?
None of which supports your claim that "Most departments have "de-rostered" the round due to it being ineffective for terminal stopping power."

Again, please name at least one US non-SWAT LE entity that is using 5.7x28 as their duty round.
No I won't. Because I never made any such claim, I see no particular reason to try to defend it.

Now, I'm asking you again to show documents from > 50% of the U.S. police departments which show that they have "'de-rostered' the round due to it being ineffective for terminal stopping power." That's your claim. And you haven't even shown one or two examples, never mind something which would be indicative of "most," you just referenced, in your own words, "5 pages of hate." So what? Maybe the round is terrible. Maybe it sucks more than the Milky Way's central black hole. But that doesn't track to your claim that "Most departments have "de-rostered" the round due to it being ineffective for terminal stopping power."

I hate sloppy thinking.
 
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I don't want to get drawn into this discussion, but my 2 cents are this:

The effectiveness of a round has everything to do with the velocity, shape, and mass of the projectile. You can't really change the velocity or mass of a given caliber much, but the projectile shape and construction can be improved.... The 22WMR was also considered not good for self defense, then the PMR30 came about and then shortly after loads that used specifically designed bullets were introduced to make it a better option for self defense.

The 5.7x28 is in the same boat, and in the near future, it is likely we will see better bullets and loadings for self defense. If there is a demand for it, it will get made. So perhaps the 5.7 is not that great for self defense right now, but the future has yet to be written, and there is certainly potential for it to get better.
 

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Also USSS used it for years before stepping up to rifle caliber PDWs.
They used P90 SMG, not PS90 semi-auto carbine, loaded with SS190 AP. Wasn't their primary weapon, though. Then, they tossed it.
 

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2.98 lbs in proven and versatile 5.56 NATO


vs.

3.2 lbs in silly 5.7x28

Hmm... Let me guess which one should I grab...
 

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2.98 lbs in proven and versatile 5.56 NATO
vs.
3.2 lbs in silly 5.7x28
Hmm... Let me guess which one should I grab...
Well at least people would be making fun of your ExTard plastic blaster instead of your caliber choice...
Neither of those would be my first choice. If i had to grab one long(er) gun it would be my 300blk SBR with Barnes 110gr.
Unless of course i need to start poking holes in tougher armor...
 

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Well at least people would be making fun of your ExTard plastic blaster instead of your caliber choice...
Neither of those would be my first choice. If i had to grab one long(er) gun it would be my 300blk SBR with Barnes 110gr.
Unless of course i need to start poking holes in tougher armor...
Making fun of plastic 3.4 lbs PLR16 yet? ;)
 

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2.98 lbs in proven and versatile 5.56 NATO


vs.

3.2 lbs in silly 5.7x28

Hmm... Let me guess which one should I grab...
No point in comparing empty weights....Unless you plan on throwing them at your target.
Loaded 30 round Pmag = 1.1 pounds
Loaded 50 round P90 mag = 1.0 pounds

Therefore:
4.1 pounds for 30 round pistol in 5.56 NATO = 700 ft-lbs x 30 rounds = 21,000 ft-lbs of total ammo energy
vs
4.2 pounds for 50 rounds 5.7x28 = 400 ft-lbs x 50 rounds = 20,000 ft-lbs total ammo energy

So the 5.56 pistol does have a 5% total energy advantage over the P50. P50 will have less recoil (due to the caliber, and slight increase in weight), and more rounds per mag, so hit probability will likely be higher which can easily make up that 5% in the real world.

References:
 

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Making fun of plastic 3.4 lbs PLR16 yet? ;)
If i saw anyone carrying one as their primary defensive weapon, then yes, i would be laughing a little, at least on the inside.

Can't remember where I heard this:
M4 is what you take to a gunfight.
P90 is what you take to work in case there is a gunfight.
 

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If i saw anyone carrying one as their primary defensive weapon, then yes, i would be laughing a little, at least on the inside.

Can't remember where I heard this:
M4 is what you take to a gunfight.
P90 is what you take to work in case there is a gunfight.
P90 is an SMG and it's 5.6 lbs - out of discussing category.
Neither P50 or PLR 16 would make an ideal PDW; however...
 
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