Ksg barrel extension on ks7?

Discussion in 'KS7 Bullpup Shotgun' started by silverback, Feb 15, 2020.

  1. WolfWings

    WolfWings Well-Known Member

    299
    Feb 19, 2020
    Kansas City
    They can keep the extended tube honestly, but yeah that extended barrel doesn't look like a screw-on piece just the longer barrel from the 25, which would be perfect IMHO.
     
  2. BJK

    BJK Well-Known Member

    505
    Jan 28, 2017
    central Maine
    Why does anyone need a longer shotgun barrel for hunting? Please bear with me.

    I ask because for years I hunted with an 18" barrel and did just fine. I stipulated when I had it cut back to remove all traces of the choke because with modern wads and shot protectors they "up" the choke at least to the next choke constriction. But without any added constriction. That meant that for patterning, while I had a cylinder bore it behaved like an Imp' cyl'. And since the barrel was so short and the choke so open it was deadly on upland game. I used another shotgun with a similar cut down barrel (having proven the idea on the 1st shotgun I had so modified), but I had it modified for choke tubes and it patterned as it should have when a choke tube was installed. I just needed to remember to swing through since the muzzle mass wasn't there to enforce follow through. But that's just training.

    Problems with the short barrel, other than follow through? If I wasn't thinking, just reacting, I could turn a bird into a cloud of feathers and did more than once. It was extremely fast.
     
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  3. socrates

    socrates Active Member

    88
    Aug 20, 2019
    This is good to know. I was thinking of getting the KSG choke adapter but if I can hunt by just using different ammo (any particular kind you had success with?) that might be preferable. Everyone usually says to use 24"+ barrels with improved or modified chokes for most upland birds and small game, but few have probably tried it this way.
     
  4. BJK

    BJK Well-Known Member

    505
    Jan 28, 2017
    central Maine
    Short answer first... if you're in tight cover taking close shots a tight choke is a detriment to success. It has to do with pattern density and pattern diameter. An open choke is fine as long as where one hunts the shell has enough shot for a dense enough pattern when the shot column opens up. The pattern can be made denser by using a shell with more and/or smaller shot.

    Pattern the shotgun to find what works best is all I can suggest. What I was using decades ago for a shotgun has no bearing on the KS7 since I don't own one yet, but the shotgun principles are the same and haven't changed. All guns are unique to themselves and even individual KS7s are different from each other. But generally any modern shotgun shell using a protective wad/cup will pattern tighter than one that was used to generate the many decades old pattern %s with wads that allowed the shot to scrape the barrel walls. I don't mean to suggest that a choke adapter isn't of value. If someone needs tighter patterns they definitely have their place and I do have a shotgun with choke tubes. But for upland game 2 3/4" shells with 1 1/8oz of 7 1/2 shot had a deadly pattern for upland game. #8 shot also worked fine and I could drop back to 1 oz skeet loads. Maybe the 1 3/4" shells would also work? IDK, I never used them, I stopped upland game hunting decades ago long before they were available. Patterning will tell the tale but with less shot one might need a tighter choke. Again, it needs to be patterned. Practice also helps and I did, but when hunting I rarely missed. I was also trained in "quick kill" in the military where one just brought the rifle up and drilled whatever one looked at (do a 'net search for "military quick kill training"). I would share what I was doing with my hunting partners but I don't know if they ever bought onto it even though they saw the results. Of course an open choke is no good for long shots...upland game, close in shots only. The coverts where I hunted a long shot was 25 yards. Any further and the bird was gone. Too tight a choke left nothing worth eating, and as I wrote, if I allowed my reflexes (quick kill training) to govern the shot I got a cloud of feathers from too fast a shot (too close). I had to deliberately slow down and allow the bird time to get some distance.

    I think the advice for long barrels comes from long ago when the persons first shotgun was a 36" full choked model and folks got stuck in the rut. I've seen the advice for longer barrels also. There is however value in a long barrel for swinging through the shot as in pass shooting, but with training any length shotgun barrel will "swing through" the shot. It's not governed by barrel length. A short barrel can also be swung through the shot. The same old myth holds true for rifle barrels (length) where to get accuracy they must be long. That's pure hogwash that might have it's beginnings due to sight radius with iron sights and then it would have been true. But with telescopic sights it's a thing of the past. Long barrels can give better velocity with some cartridges. They also give better "holding" but other than that a short barrel in itself (re: rifles) is no more inherently accurate than a short barrel. The argument can be made, with some justification and proof that short barrels and their harmonics are actually easier to get accuracy out of. Yet the long barrel myth persists. I see it all the time even with competitive handguns. Where a long barrel is a "competition" handgun even though it's designed to be used with an optic and a long sight radius is completely meaningless. I shoot Action Pistol and while a heavier gun might be better for bullseye, a lighter gun moves better IMO for action shooting. But I'm getting off the subject of shotgun so I'll leave it there.
     
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  5. WolfWings

    WolfWings Well-Known Member

    299
    Feb 19, 2020
    Kansas City
    My largest reason for wanting a longer barrel on a KS7 is the extra length should tighten the shot pattern somewhat as well as make the choke adapter easier to work with without the mag tube cap getting in the way.

    On my bone-stock KS7 I find the pattern extremely wide, even at only 25 yards it can carpet an entire 36x36 paper with #7 to where patterning seemed to have no discernable variation in density or even a 'center' unless I purposefully aimed towards a corner to only capture a quarter-circle of the pattern.

    In general while I feel the stock KS7 is near-ideal for home defense use it's less useful for other purposes, especially as many of the KSG barrel attachments have interference issues with the mag cap due to design specifics, so a longer swappable barrel could make it better as a general-purpose utility shotgun when going out, but easily swapped back to a HD configuration when done as part of the field-stripping for cleaning.
     
    socrates likes this.
  6. Floyd Eye

    Floyd Eye Well-Known Member

    212
    Dec 6, 2019
    Quite frankly, and speaking as someone who has been breeding dogs and bird hunting over 40 years now, KelTec doesn’t make a shotgun I would pick for upland birds. There’s a reason why Citoris don’t come with 18” barrels.

    There are guys who can successfully hunt big bucks with a .22 Magnum. I’m pretty sure I could. Just because you can do something doesn’t mean you should.

    Just me I guess. I’ll stick with one of my old double barrels.
     
  7. socrates

    socrates Active Member

    88
    Aug 20, 2019
    Yeah, I'm gonna grab an Ithaca 37 for a hunting shotgun once they're back in stock everywhere. But I like stuff to be versatile for SHTF purposes, so it'd be good to be able to use the KS7 for hunting if necessary.
     
    Floyd Eye likes this.
  8. terry_tr6

    terry_tr6 Well-Known Member

    465
    Jan 28, 2015
    grant valkaria, Fla
    here si some info on barrel length copied from a KSG post by dfariswheel :
    Years ago the NRA American Rifleman Dope Bag technical staff did a study on what effect barrel length had on shotgun performance.

    They got a Marlin bolt action Goose Gun with a 36 inch barrel.
    They began cutting the barrel down in one inch increments and mounting a choke tube.
    Then they fired the gun for pattern and velocity.
    They continued cutting the barrel down one inch at a time and re-mounting the choke until they were down to 12 inches.

    What they found was........
    1. Barrel length has no effect at all on patterns.
    An 18 inch barrel will pattern just as well as a 36 inch barrel.
    It's the choke that determines the pattern, not the barrel length.

    2. There was little difference in velocity in barrels from 18 inches to 28 inches.
    In fact, when the barrel gets over about 28 inches velocity began to drop due to friction.

    3. The idea that a longer barrel shoots farther or "harder" is a left over from black powder days when longer barrels burned the black powder more efficiently.

    4. Anything that's going to happen in a shotgun barrel balistically happens within 18 inches.

    5. Things didn't "get out of hand" until the barrel was down to around 12 inches.

    6. The only real advantage to a longer barrel is that it points better due to the longer sighting radius and makes it easier to high high flying birds.
    On the other hand a short barrel is better for close range hunting of birds like quail.

    Their bottom line was that you don't need a 25 to 28 inch shotgun barrel to get good results of pattern or range.
    An 18 to 20 inch barrel with a choke will give the same results as a longer barrel with the same choke.
     
    dazed likes this.
  9. BJK

    BJK Well-Known Member

    505
    Jan 28, 2017
    central Maine
    Yup, I used a short SxS for many years for upland game. It told the gunsmith to cut it back far enough to get rid of all the choke. It was absolutely unsporting on upland game.
     
  10. Liberty4Ever

    Liberty4Ever Moderator Moderator Supporter

    May 19, 2006
    Lexington KY
    I assume that 12" barrel experiment was prior to the 1934 National Firearms Act.



    According to the tests done by The Box Of Truth (love those guys), the length of the barrel didn't result in any change to the pattern, which was only a function of the choke, but longer barrels did increase velocity on a shotgun.

    https://www.theboxotruth.com/barrel-length-shotgun-affect-velocity

    20 inch barrel:
    Load #1 – 1103 fps Load #2 – 1242 Load #3 – 1465

    26 inch barrel:
    Load #1 – 1165 Load #2 – 1300 Load #3 – 1527

    36 inch barrel:
    Load #1 – 1203 Load #2 – 1375 Load #3 – 1602

    You will notice that in each case, the longer the barrel, the higher the velocity.
     
  11. RAT76

    RAT76 Well-Known Member

    I've got my Grandfather's Winchester 1897 take down 12 guage pump. Worn completely out. One of the barrels is cut down from a bent barrel & has a front sight brazed off center by about an 1/16 inch.

    He used it during the Depression to hunt dove & such for the table & selling in town. Unsporting? Yep.
     
  12. BJK

    BJK Well-Known Member

    505
    Jan 28, 2017
    central Maine
    Today with shot protecting wads a cyl' bore is basically imp' cyl'. That works for all chokes, just increase to the next tighter choke with modern ammo. All ammo sold today uses shot protectors as far as I know. :D but it's still absolutely deadly on upland game if one is even remotely practiced at wingshooting. Too, one needs to pay attention to pattern density.
     
  13. dfariswheel

    dfariswheel Well-Known Member

    190
    Jul 17, 2017
    The NRA American Rifleman Tech staff study was done, as I recall, in the 1970's or early 80's.
    I believe they have the necessary licenses so they can have the full-auto weapons in the NRA museum, and work on them as needed, so they could legally shorten the barrel of the Goose gun.
    Then too, members of the Tec staff and editors often have their own Class 3 licenses.

    Since then shotgun ammo makers have improved shotgun ballistics to get higher velocities and even tighter patterns.

    Back in the 1950's Winchester had a factor rep who hit all the big shotgun events.
    He could have any Winchester gun he wanted, including the fabulous engraved Model 21 double gun.
    His preferred quail gun was a battered and worn Winchester Model 12 with an open cylinder 18 inch barrel.
    He was able to shoot the instant the birds flushes instead of having to wait until they weren't too close.
    He always got his limit with the short barreled gun.
     
  14. BJK

    BJK Well-Known Member

    505
    Jan 28, 2017
    central Maine
    The only problem I had with my short barrel guns was (and still would be if I hunted upland game) is getting on them too soon. Where I hunted the coverts are close and tight and if a bird gets 20 yards away they can be gone. Birds will sometimes hold until you're just a few yards away. I was taught "quick kill" in the military and basically the gun comes up and you're on and fire, the eye/brain doesn't even compute, there's no time for that. It's close to instant. A number of times I had a cloud if feathers and nothing else until I learned to slow down. But that instinctive "quick kill" shooting is still there.

    Getting off the subject now, but that training was extremely valuable and was taught for jungle warfare. You can teach it to yourself with a BB gun and a buddy. Do a 'net search for it.
     
  15. dfariswheel

    dfariswheel Well-Known Member

    190
    Jul 17, 2017
    The military called the program "Quick Kill" and Daisy sold it commercially as "Quick Skill".

    The kit was a Daisy lever action BB gun with an adult length stock and NO sights, some various sizes of steel disks, two pairs of protective shooting glasses and an instruction manual.

    The instructor stood slightly behind the student and tossed the largest steel disk in the air and gave advice on how to hit the disk by seeing where the BB went.
    As the student got better smaller and smaller disks were used.
    Once the military student had the skill an M16 rifle with a big rubber band stretched over the sights to prevent their use was used to fire live ammo on an instinctive combat course.

    A surprising number of people developed to the point they could hit a BB tossed in the air.

    Years before this I taught myself how to shoot aerial targets with BB rifles and pistols shooting in the back yard.
    It's amazing how good you can get at this and it transfers over to real guns.

    After some time shooting at tossed steel beer cans opened with a beer can opener (this was before aluminum cans or tab tops) I got really good. I had a good supply of cans having 3 older brothers).
    I got to the point my brothers used to win money from their friends on bets that I could put a BB INTO the can through the triangular can opening.
    I couldn't do it every time because the can had to align just right.
    I don't recall my brothers giving me any of the winnings.

    The point is, you learn to shoot by SHOOTING.
    It doesn't necessarily have to be live ammo, a BB or pellet gun can teach the skills that work with real guns.
    While most standard BB and pellet guns are not accurate enough to do much with target shooting, at moving or instinctive shooting they excel and do it at a far lower cost.
    Plus, depending on where you live you can do it in a back yard safely.

    I haven't had any real experience with air soft and the plastic BB's used in them, but if they have any real accuracy at all they might be usable anywhere.
    All you need is a place to shoot, a gun and ammo, and some cans.
    Just toss a can up and shoot at it. After a time you'll figure it out and get better and better.
     
  16. SoCalKS7

    SoCalKS7 Member

    5
    Jul 15, 2020
    They actually showed the KS7 with barrel and magazine tube extension at Shot Show 2020. I wonder when its gonna be officially out.

     
  17. Hobie-Wan Kenobi

    Hobie-Wan Kenobi Member

    30
    Dec 31, 2019
    We need a rifled barrel for the KS7
     
  18. BJK

    BJK Well-Known Member

    505
    Jan 28, 2017
    central Maine
    I know the rifled barrel would be huge for some folks.