[Charlie Bravo]

SO this is a bit of fantasy unless someone from Kel-Tec wants to follow through and make this. All I ask is I get a free one. This is a culmination of everyone's gripes concerning the carry handle. Any firing functionality can be addressed elsewhere.

The handle is cool looking but honestly a bit of a compromise since it locates everything above the barrel. The Side slots make everything 90 degrees off but above the barrel unlike AR platforms. Even with that, I like it more than I hate it. The problems left to us to conquer could be helped if that handle was tweaked a bit.

My KS7"B" would address:
-Slings
-Red Dots/Scopes

-Bonus pump strap adaptation I'd light to employ.
-QD slot lower and as clear the pump action as possible
- Handle grip is lowered to afford a proper 1913 rail mounting spot for RD/Scope lovers. The handle would have to be widen there to allow normal rails, or KT can make one that fits.

Thoughts?

 

[62-10]

I put a carry handle on my KSG & like it just fine, as is.

 

[MadRonin]

You can already mount a picatinny rail in the KS7 carry handle. Just need to use one for an AR carry handle. Works quite well at the current height.

 

[dfariswheel]

The standard KS7 can almost certainly be modified to allow the handle strap and the QD sling mount.

The strap could be installed on the handle by drilling holes and bolting a nylon strap in place.
There's enough material there that bolts could be installed. The glass fiber nylon used is stronger then it looks.
For plenty of strength you could drill four holes, on each side of the handle, front and back
"Probably" single holes with larger washers could be drilled or cut between the two halves, since the assembly is strongly bolted together and probably wouldn't spread open easily.

Extra M-Loc slots can be easily cut in the rear of the carry handle, which I may do as an experiment.

Installing a QD sling mount in the existing handle is probably do-able, since the plastic is tough.
In the current handle I'd drill the hole in the rear side of the handle in front of the mounting screw or to the rear, not up where you show it.
I'm not certain there's enough material there.

Another option would be to either replace the existing handle mounting screw with a longer screw and use it to attach a mount, or drill another hole in the carry handle and bolt a mount in.

Point is, if you study the KS7 plastic assembly, there's any number of options that could be done with simple alterations.

Kel-Tec could alter the handle design to allow a Pickatinny mount, but that would eliminate the sighting set up to a KSG system where there is no sight on the stock gun.
Kel-Tec decided to just sell a replacement KSG rail as an option.
Possibly they might consider a modified handle with rail, OR an optional accessory rail that would fit the stock handle.
A member here has already found out that an AR 15 scope mount can be fitted into the stock handle.
Properly set up you could have a rail that would allow the stock carry handle sights to be used.

 

[Charlie Bravo]

MadRonin & dfariswheel: good discussion but not really my point. Yes handle can be adapted but I find THAT short of what I like. I have reconfigured sling and lights etc looking for least compromise.

Mounting a 1913 rail in handle as is puts Red Dot too high for me. I put a TRS-25 without rail adapter on handle and it was good (but could have been a smidge lower). When I shoved a normal rail adapter into handle (not fun) and mounted TRS-25 on it - too high. That little difference is why I suggested a lowered rail mountable design change.

The QD hole was depicted on a beefed up handle. That is not possible with current handle. That portion on side would have to be wider to accept a QD mount. And that seems a very minor design change to enable a better sling mount: Aft of pump cycle movement better than any existing MLOK slot with adapter. Also a built in QD hole keeps things neater and slimmer. A compromise would be 5 MLOK slots on handle where adapter can be mounted as aft as you desire. The current 3 slots leave me wanting 2 more to keep it awesomer! I added a QD hole aft of handle this time without altering handle. I believe it would need a little extra material to present a mountable surface. Another potential QD hole area is that trapezoid next to aft handle screw but again I think it would need more area.

Lastly I know the strap is a "just screw into pump" DIY project. The fact the handle splits in 2 presents to some a "got to be able to take it all apart": using 4 screws, 2 each side, would slightly complicate that, but not enough to worry about. I am going to do it later. The back triangle hand stop on pump does narrow more than strap if attached outside. So that is why I depited it inside where hand goes. It would be better if the pump had a more factory designed ability to attach a strap: photo is looking forward from behind the pump, mag tube above. So again, an easy redesign could make it better without offending anyone who thinks it good "as is".

So keep the comments rolling as it makes me rethink ideas.

 

[dfariswheel]

Of course Kel-Tec could redesign the handle to add the features you want, but I doubt they will.
This is a case of their design being what they thought it should be and "It is what it is".
They seem to have the idea that if you want a different type of sight then the carry handle, you buy a KSG rail conversion for the KS7,

You can always contact them and show them the pictures and describe the changes, and they seem to listen to the customer pretty well.

For your handle strap, I'd suggest using a narrower nylon to better fit the handle.
I buy 1 1/4" heavy nylon webbing for some shoulder holster designs, and for rifle slings.
1 1/4" is hard to find, especially in smaller amounts. I buy it here................

1 1/4 Inch 4088 Nylon Black

Order 1 1/4 Inch 4088 Nylon Black for $0.65 at Strapworks, No minimums!

www.strapworks.com

Note that some of the Mil-Spec is much thinner and not suitable for this sort of think. You want the 0.065" thickness.
Also note that they sell metal and plastic hardware, including HK rifle type sling hooks.

I suspect the Kel-Tec glass reinforced Nylon is tough enough and well enough bolted together that you might be able to use a singe hole for the handle strap.
You could drill or just file holes between the two handle sections and use larger washers inside and out, one in the front and one in the back.
I don't think the stress would be enough to pull the bolts out or spread the handle halves.
Since there's seldom a need to disassemble the handle, four bolts and washers would be much better and eliminate any problems.

 

[Charlie Bravo]

strap is .080" thick meant for Moss500/590 so it should be good
Shockwave brand (not endorsing) Amazon.com : Shockwave Technologies Tactical Strap Kit for Mossberg 500 Handguard Forend Shotgun : Sports & Outdoors

I figured screwing strap to inner side will leave screw heads exposed but better than screws poking from outside in.

• Front side could screw into front of pump facing inward as screws won't poke inside but rear pump is probably best from inside.
• So aesthetically front & rear screwed to inside of pump handle area with screws pointing outward...

There aren't any nuts for screws; but maybe loctite some matching nuts for extra security? This strap is mostly a secondary safety feature; with grip tape hand should stay on pump, but I like the idea of the strap in rare case of hand slippage. Bullpups be short and KS7 seems to favor the strong sharply cycled pump.

 

[dfariswheel]

I don't understand "Aren't any nuts for screws" ??

You can buy Nyloc lock nuts at most any hardware store, so no Loctite is needed.
For each screw a washer inside the plastic and one outside on the the strap will reinforce the strap enough you won't have any problems with it.

Your set up looks like the way the way to go, and neatly eliminates any complicated, bulky, and expensive plastic or metal conversion handles.

 

[Charlie Bravo]

All I meant was No nuts in Shockwave kit. Could find matching nuts or replace provided screws with screw/nut combo. Wow. That got awkward

 

[dfariswheel]

Obviously you're nuts....
Weird that the kit didn't include the nuts needed to assemble it, but "Stuff happens" especially these days.

If you replace the screws nuts and washers you can choose bright plated, Black, or stainless steel.

 

[shooty McBang]

The carry handle is unique but, in real life defensive conditions, I or my friends have never carried it as such.
A single point sling is a far better carry. On one of my KS7s, I removed the carry handle, installed a full length rail.
I then installed a flip up rear iron site with mid way, installing a small format red dot laser.
This in my opinion, is the best close up / medium range site set up for this gun.
No front site is needed as the laser projects farther than the gun can shoot effectively.
Grip tape on the charge handle and hand grip keep things in place while walking or running.
Light weight add-ons kept simple.
On my other KS7, I removed the handle, added a full length rail then added a small 45 degree side rail for a quick release flashlight that is activated with a pressure pad on the charge handle.
On top I have a nice optical red / green dot / cross projector.
Grip tape on both the charge handle and the grip.
Single point sling also.

 

[silverback]

I dont like single.point slings. Case i point watch the video on rittenhouse. The single point sling was bouncing everywhere. Double point adjustable vickers or now its called blue force sling best way to a carry. But that just my humble opinion

 

[Charlie Bravo]

Let us try to keep this thread about IMPROVING the handle.

Any "better without it, just install a rail" is covered else where. I merely wanted to discuss how to make the handle better which is hard to do if you remove it. Oh and I carry KS7 by the handle; but not while shooting in any situation. To suggest it is useless for firing is a bit strange since it is obviously not designed as a ready to fire handle. M-16 handles are exactly the same: for administrative carry, not firing. The handle is a unique way to incorporate front sight and mounting points. The top rail is a cool option but give Kel-Tec zero reasons to improve the handle.

Any 1 pt vs 2 pt sling is also not the point of this thread and is also dealt with in other threads, even though my QD mount suggests 2 pt, anyone wanting to go 1 pt can do that with original or "improved" handle or with a rail installed. Slings are excellent way to cary any rifle/shotgun when you need to free your hands. I prefer 2 pt which is why I suggest a QD spot on handle to aid implementing sling usage. I think the handle slots are too far forward and might allow a 2 pt sling to mess with pump action but mostly I think the angle of a sling mounted further aft is more preferred.

So I kindly thank you for the inputs but would like to steer the discussion back to how the handle itself can be better. I admit my pump handle strap is a bit off topic but it was included in my original photoshop that I started this discussion. Again constructive opinions are more than welcomed as I have altered my "improved" handle based on other's ideas.

 

[silverback]

Wow!! OK. Just get rid of carry handle and put the rail with a goi3d set of iron fixed sights. Its all you need for a shotgun. You will end up spending more trying to make the carry handle something its not. You could put a reddot on it but i like the reliability of irons. Quick easy to deploy and accurate enough out to 100 yards. The rail also cleans up the appearance and reduces the profile.

 

[BJK]

For those folks who can still use irons irons make huge sense.

 

[Charlie Bravo]

Obviously you're nuts....
Weird that the kit didn't include the nuts needed to assemble it, but "Stuff happens" especially these days.

If you replace the screws nuts and washers you can choose bright plated, Black, or stainless steel.

The kit is meant to go on Mossberg pump and I guess nuts would not work or are not needed. If the screws poke out as applied on KS7's pump then I could maybe put nuts on it.

I could have bought any nylon strap and cut to length but this seems an easy kit to try out. My original idea was to fashion a strap out of 550 cord. same idea to drill 4 holes (2 front/2 rear) and use any one of a dozen patterns to create a custom strap. Bought the cord and studied a few YouTube videos.

After a bit, I thought a 550 cord strap would be too thick to use if I had to grab KS7 quickly and didn't have time or clarity of thought to slip hand into the loop. The idea of grabbing pump with 550 cord between hand and pump just bothered me. So I figured a thinner nylon strap would work for keeping hand on pump or if I grabbed pump with strap between hand and pump, it would be less in the way.

 

[dfariswheel]

The only problem with all this is that it's very unlikely that Kel-Tec is going to alter the handle design since the average owner either uses it as-is or replaces it with a rail.
Going on usual practices, the vast majority of buyers use it with the handle, and probably don't even know a rail is available.

People are shocked when they hear how expensive a plastic mold costs, so I doubt that Kel-Tec is going to invest that kind of money to change a design they feel meets the needs, just to satisfy a tiny handful of potential buyers.
This is rather a case of it is what it is, either use it or buy some other design gun.
Another problem is that apparently Kel-Tec does not accept new design requests or suggestions.
So, wanting something different and getting it are two different things.

It would be at least possible to make a different handle by machining it from a large piece of an engineering grade plastic.
If you had a milling machine it would be possible to make a one-off for yourself.
If you were going to sell them, you'd have to manufacture a plastic mold, which as I said is shocking expensive, and you'd have to do a marketing study to see if there was any kind of market that would make it profitable.

As discussed, there are ways to modify the existing handle to allow options.
I haven't got to it yet, but as an experiment I may cut two more M-Loc slots in the rear of the handle.
More attachments could be bolted to the bottom of the handle underneath were the bolt that fastens it to the receiver is.

However, I have no good ideas on modifying the handle to make it lower to mount a sight.

It's always fun to think of ways to customize a gun to better suit a persons needs or "Just because" but in a case like this I it's just not going to happen.
Bottom line, the KS7 design is what it is, and you can either do what modifications that are possible, live with it as it is, or....just don't buy it.

 

[Charlie Bravo]

So let me be honest. I don't expect KT to make this unless everybody gets on this thread demanding we make a petition and etc etc etc.... so no I am not delusional. i get it.

I am still interested in a better handle concept with helpful suggestions.

• That is why any "ditch the handle" or "it is good as is" irks me as it misses the point of this entire exercise.
• If none of this is interesting, move on.

I do NOT envision going the rail option and I do NOT like the existing slot options for sling mount, though they work ok.

• Sling attached to top of handle kind of block field of view when looking down tunnel sight.
• Any option further aft would be great. A Noveske QD socket seems doable anywhere aft of the slots.
• I am also working a unique handle integration add-on. Gotta test it out but it will show there is much potential in the polarizing handle.

anyway.....

 

[BJK]

So let me be honest. I don't expect KT to make this unless everybody gets on this thread demanding we make a petition and etc etc etc.... so no I am not delusional. i get it.

I wouldn't expect it even then. A new mould might cost $100k+. They need to balance the cost vs the sales and the aggravation (cost) of designing and making it. I don't expect to see it. They aren't in the business of making clients who have purchased and want to fine tune, however much we might want that, but they're in the business of making $. The bean counters are in charge. It's costs $ to fine tune things. Want more? Get the S&W. Sorry, but that's reality.

 

[Charlie Bravo]

So like enough already. How many times can I say I get it. This is an exercise that will not be solved by KT. So either comment on the handle on what you like or not. But to harp on anything else is literally missing the point. If you believe this is a waste of time, move on. I started with 'it is a bit of fantasy' How many other threads are out there for everyone to comment on?