Around the 2:35 mark in the YouTube video.
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2016/04/28/new-kel-tec-updates-with-military-arms-channel/
And Chad's beard is awesome
Kel-Tec says RFB is becoming outdated
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http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2016/04/28/new-kel-tec-updates-with-military-arms-channel/
And Chad's beard is awesome
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There have been hints at an RFB overhaul as an RDB big brother, since soon after the RDB was in development. I think there are some functional issues with the RFB that could be addressed, although mostly ironed out via continuous quality improvement. If you question the power of CQI, just look at today's AR-15 compared to the Vietnam War era M-16. However, from Kel-Tec's perspective, I think the larger issue is the manufacturability of the RFB versus the RDB. They can get the cost down on a .308 version of the RDB without sacrificing any of the RFB goodness. In many ways, I already see the RDB as a Gen 2 RFB. In that context, an RDB Heavy isn't a surprise.
It's interesting that the RFB is getting a bit long in the tooth, but the SU-16 isn't. Or the P-11! I guess it's a testament to Kel-Tec's emphasis on value innovation that they didn't reply to Ruger's blatant LCP copy of the P-3AT by introducing a Gen 2 P-3AT that, like the LCP, is a P-3AT internally with a prettier and more modern injection molded frame. Kel-Tec was too busy doing more serious engineering, and didn't bother to spend the time making a new injection mold for the P-3AT so it'd look prettier, to cut into LCP sales.
Speaking of new versions of awesome Kel-Tec firearms... I still have a Kel-Tec flier advertising the new 300 BLK SU-16. I still want one!
PS - I'm in for a 308 RDB! Yes, please!
It's interesting that the RFB is getting a bit long in the tooth, but the SU-16 isn't. Or the P-11! I guess it's a testament to Kel-Tec's emphasis on value innovation that they didn't reply to Ruger's blatant LCP copy of the P-3AT by introducing a Gen 2 P-3AT that, like the LCP, is a P-3AT internally with a prettier and more modern injection molded frame. Kel-Tec was too busy doing more serious engineering, and didn't bother to spend the time making a new injection mold for the P-3AT so it'd look prettier, to cut into LCP sales.
Speaking of new versions of awesome Kel-Tec firearms... I still have a Kel-Tec flier advertising the new 300 BLK SU-16. I still want one!
PS - I'm in for a 308 RDB! Yes, please!
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Only one small problem:
The .308 is a real man's cartridge. Rifles like the Garand in 308, AR-10 and RFB can handle the punishment it dishes out because they have backbone.
Think about bolt guns, when a new bolt gun is introduced they list a long list of calibers that it is available in. It's easy.
Not so with auto-loaders.
The same reason that there are not .308 and 30-06 versions of the AR-15 running wild everywhere.
Real rifle rounds will pound a lightweight into pieces.
If a .308 prototype of the RDB survived, it would would have been available from the beginning.
Everybody on the planet owns a .223 already. KT wouldn't offer the RDB only in .223 if other 'real' calibers would work.
There would be .308 auto bullpups everywhere if it were easy to do.
Perhaps people will one day realize what a monumental achievement the RFB was even with it's manual gas adjuster.
Edit: speaking of outdated, so is the AK-47. Think they are going away any time soon?
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I agree with " BlakeHanson " completely ! K-T would / will have to do some MAJOR redesigning of the RDB to accept the .308 Winchester Round and survive without the weapon having serious problems . That is the reason why the RFB is as big and as robust / heavy as it is ; it was over built to take the pounding . The RDB in its current production state could / would NEVER be able to take that kind of pounding . What K-T should do is just keep the RFB in Production ( it is not showing it's " age " : ridiculous statement ! ) . It is still state of the art , and works just fine Thank You ! If they still want a .308 in the RDB , then start making them in .300 Blackout Cal . . The RDB would be able to handle that round , and since the .300 Blackout round is state of the art for the " AR's " these days , K-T can then end production of the .223 Remington round RDB's !
I am obviously not a big fan of .223 's !
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KT still makes a tidy profit on every one they make. They still have tremendous demand for the RFB which they cannot meet.
Pretend you're a business executive. What would you do? Shift production away from one that has backlogs of unfilled orders to something that 'might' sell?
As for the value of existing ones, most RFBs have been 'well-loved' and have lots of rounds run thru them. Even if KT halts production, they could always start back up if values soar with 'minty-fresh' new ones. It's been done before. Some models are just too good to let die.
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I can see another reason why they would not offer the RDB in .308 just yet. It would compete with their already established RFB assembly division, possibly putting it out of buisness while it is still actively producing income. I think when the RFB is spent and the cash cow runs dry, it will then be financially advantageous for KT to produce the RDB in .308...
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They could switch the RFB production line over to RDBs in less than a month.
I don't think the RFB demand is going to become 'spent' even if a .308 WIN version of the RDB should become viable.
Remington introduced an autoloader shotgun in 1963 (53 years ago) called the model 1100. A lot of models have come and gone in 50 years.
They still make an updated Model 1100 today. It's also the best selling autoloading shotgun in US history
.Remington will discontinue it any day now
.With over 4 million sold, I'm sure the market should be pretty well dried up
(oh wait, they still work
)Attachments
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Someone still believes in unicorns... Later (think 2 years
.Since there is a surplus of Hunters now
they should be right around the corner.Along with the:
RFB Quad Rail for either model.
RFB KFB foldable bayonet.
and numerous other mythical creatures.
Even if there was a .308 RDB tomorrow (actually one you could buy
), it would do what exactly, better than the RFB?(I know this is a stretch, but play along anyway:teehee
The RDB will have to be longer by a loaded cartridge case than the RFB to eject behind the mag and perform the same function.
To quote the movie "The Grinch", what's my motivation?
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I believe that Kel-Tec has plenty of reason to offer the RDB, beefed up to 308. They aren't concerned with competing with their RFB because the 308 version of the RDB will replace the RFB. Why replace a rifle that can't be built fast enough to meet demand with a similarly featured rifle that will require significant engineering and tooling costs? Because the 308 RDB will be much faster and easier to build. They can build many more of them, and their profit margin on each will be higher. It's a business thing.
Step 1. Collect underpants.
Step 2. ?????
Step 3. Profit.
Why would Kel-Tec redesign the SUB-2000 to make the Gen 2 SUB-2000? Because... better, faster. They added more features that customers wanted and they can build them faster so twice as many are sold every week. More guns for us. More money for them. Everybody wins.
And nobody is thinking they can put a 308 barrel on an RDB and ship it. Obviously, the case is much longer so the action will need to be scaled up accordingly, but the increased power will also necessitate a more solid frame as well. I suspect they'll try to reuse some of the trigger group components, but everything else would be scaled up and beefed up as needed. However, that's not nearly the engineering feat that a completely new design would be.
I wouldn't expect a 300 BLK RDB, must as I'd love to have one. It seems that George is soured on the 300 BLK. Kel-Tec has always had a strong preference for well established cartridges and it seems that lately, whenever they talk about something outside the box, it's not 300 BLK.
Step 1. Collect underpants.
Step 2. ?????
Step 3. Profit.
Why would Kel-Tec redesign the SUB-2000 to make the Gen 2 SUB-2000? Because... better, faster. They added more features that customers wanted and they can build them faster so twice as many are sold every week. More guns for us. More money for them. Everybody wins.
And nobody is thinking they can put a 308 barrel on an RDB and ship it. Obviously, the case is much longer so the action will need to be scaled up accordingly, but the increased power will also necessitate a more solid frame as well. I suspect they'll try to reuse some of the trigger group components, but everything else would be scaled up and beefed up as needed. However, that's not nearly the engineering feat that a completely new design would be.
I wouldn't expect a 300 BLK RDB, must as I'd love to have one. It seems that George is soured on the 300 BLK. Kel-Tec has always had a strong preference for well established cartridges and it seems that lately, whenever they talk about something outside the box, it's not 300 BLK.
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If what you say is correct , then George needs to re-think the whole business model including profit and loss ; .300 Blackout Cal . is the " small " round of the future for most of the " Free World " including the US Government ! Most " Free World " countries are scrambling to replace the 5.56mm/45 NATO Cal . with the .300 Blackout Cal . The same holds true with most Law Enforcement Agencies and Police Departments . George : get with it ! This is the 21st Century ; NOT the 20th Century !I believe that Kel-Tec has plenty of reason to offer the RDB, beefed up to 308. They aren't concerned with competing with their RFB because the 308 version of the RDB will replace the RFB. Why replace a rifle that can't be built fast enough to meet demand with a similarly featured rifle that will require significant engineering and tooling costs? Because the 308 RDB will be much faster and easier to build. They can build many more of them, and their profit margin on each will be higher. It's a business thing.
Step 1. Collect underpants.
Step 2. ?????
Step 3. Profit.
Why would Kel-Tec redesign the SUB-2000 to make the Gen 2 SUB-2000? Because... better, faster. They added more features that customers wanted and they can build them faster so twice as many are sold every week. More guns for us. More money for them. Everybody wins.
And nobody is thinking they can put a 308 barrel on an RDB and ship it. Obviously, the case is much longer so the action will need to be scaled up accordingly, but the increased power will also necessitate a more solid frame as well. I suspect they'll try to reuse some of the trigger group components, but everything else would be scaled up and beefed up as needed. However, that's not nearly the engineering feat that a completely new design would be.
I wouldn't expect a 300 BLK RDB, must as I'd love to have one. It seems that George is soured on the 300 BLK. Kel-Tec has always had a strong preference for well established cartridges and it seems that lately, whenever they talk about something outside the box, it's not 300 BLK.
If what you say is correct , then George needs to re-think the whole business model including profit and loss ; .300 Blackout Cal . is the " small " round of the future for most of the " Free World " including the US Government ! Most " Free World " countries are scrambling to replace the 5.56mm/45 NATO Cal . with the .300 Blackout Cal . The same holds true with most Law Enforcement Agencies and Police Departments . George : get with it ! This is the 21st Century ; NOT the 20th Century !
Interesting theory. If so it proves the Soviet Union got it right, first.
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Almost.
But you don't see communist countries scrapping their AK47s in 7.62x39 for 5.56 NATO do you?
The shortcomings of that round become apparent very quick the moment you have to shoot thru something to hit a target.
Most targets are not standing naked in the wide open
.BTW, the M60 doesn't fire :quote:22s:quote: either.
7.62x51= Run Charlie!
I forgot. The M60 is outdated having been around since 1957.
Still in production.
It will be discontinued any day now
.(oh wait, it still works well
)If the question is 308 vs 223, the answer is simple. Men don't survive getting hit with a 308, but you can carry a whole lot of 223. More than twice as much for a given weight. A 150-180 round loadout of 308 is what, 450+ rounds of .223?
Although I don't agree with the theory that 223 is "designed to wound and not kill", even if such a side-effect ends up as beneficial, I do think sheer volume of fire is what was intended for that round. It doesn't penetrate as well as 308, but you do have 3 chances. Or more. I mean, watch this video. [ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYSCuAfOc5g[/ame]
Those guys are "throwing bullets away like candy." They clearly had very little concern for ammunition usage. They also won the fight. Supposedly they were low on ammo when they decided to withdraw. What amazes me is when I hear of guys carrying up to 900 rounds of 223. Even using up 300 rounds in a single firefight just amazes me. But, they won. If a stupid idea works, it isn't stupid.
Ultimately, I choose the RFB, so you can determine for yourself which ideology I prefer.
Although I don't agree with the theory that 223 is "designed to wound and not kill", even if such a side-effect ends up as beneficial, I do think sheer volume of fire is what was intended for that round. It doesn't penetrate as well as 308, but you do have 3 chances. Or more. I mean, watch this video. [ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYSCuAfOc5g[/ame]
Those guys are "throwing bullets away like candy." They clearly had very little concern for ammunition usage. They also won the fight. Supposedly they were low on ammo when they decided to withdraw. What amazes me is when I hear of guys carrying up to 900 rounds of 223. Even using up 300 rounds in a single firefight just amazes me. But, they won. If a stupid idea works, it isn't stupid.
Ultimately, I choose the RFB, so you can determine for yourself which ideology I prefer.
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Excellent video!
God bless our troops.
Also in the fight...
The M240:
An outdated M60 with a bent carry handle:
Both of which were slinging 7.62x51
.(I did say 'outdated' so we're still on topic
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