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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I opened a ticket with Kel-Tec concerning the use of +P and +P+ 9mm ammo with the Sub 2000. See the attached response from Kel-Tec. They do not recommend any use of either +P or +P+ ammo with the Sub 2000 rifles.
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IIRC, from a sub2k barrel, a standard 9mm round is already traveling at or near 357mag velocity.
 
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Interesting info. The ONLY reason I would want to know is that there is a variety of ammo for the 9mm. I would not want to have to worry every time I shot a 9mm as to whether it was standard pressure or +p or +p+. After all, some of us want to use this as a SHTF gun. Sort of like having a 357 so you don't have to worry about availability of 38 vs 357.
 

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Interesting info. The ONLY reason I would want to know is that there is a variety of ammo for the 9mm. I would not want to have to worry every time I shot a 9mm as to whether it was standard pressure or +p or +p+. After all, some of us want to use this as a SHTF gun. Sort of like having a 357 so you don't have to worry about availability of 38 vs 357.
Specifications on good ammo is readily available. Don't shoot reloads unless you or a person known and trusted by you has loaded. Don't shoot surplus ammo of unknown origin. In short if you do not know exactly what the power level of the ammo is, this really applies to all guns, don't use it.
As to SHTF........all bets are off. Your gonna do what you have to do. You have addressed the one major wart the sub has, strength. Due to the materials used and the folding feature it is not a robust design. It fills it's role of handy folding PCC beautifully. If the ability to use high pressure loads is more desirable than the folding feature there are better PCC to fill that role.
 

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Specifications on good ammo is readily available. Don't shoot reloads unless you or a person known and trusted by you has loaded. Don't shoot surplus ammo of unknown origin. In short if you do not know exactly what the power level of the ammo is, this really applies to all guns, don't use it.
As to SHTF........all bets are off. Your gonna do what you have to do. You have addressed the one major wart the sub has, strength. Due to the materials used and the folding feature it is not a robust design. It fills it's role of handy folding PCC beautifully. If the ability to use high pressure loads is more desirable than the folding feature there are better PCC to fill that role.
Thanks, the first paragraph is an obvious conclusion and I thought a given. The second paragraph more on point. I don't understand how the folding concept bears on the pressures of a higher pressure round. The pressure spike is in the bbl and not the fold. And I do agree that plastic is not as durable as a steel/aluminum body.
 

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My apologies, that obvious conclusion didn't appear obvious to you from your posts. There are plenty of stronger polymer guns. All one has to do is LOOK at the sub. The hinge area and catch are plastic. If the gun was aluminum it would be substantially stronger given good engineering. Of course it would be heavier and more expensive. The fact that the gun is hinged AND plastic limits the strength potential. For long term use under adverse conditions there are far better options. Accept the weapon for what it is. A light compact little carbine that is able to be carried discreetly. It is a compromise weapon, better than a handgun but not a battle rifle by ANY stretch.
 

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See the folding XAR: https://www.fddefense.com/rifles/xar/
This folding AR platform will cost $2100 - $2500 when it is released for sale later this Summer. The cost of engineering and building a rifle that can fold and use high-pressure ammo is high.
Exactly......the little sub is an inexpensive, plastic design with modest expectations. You want something a bit more capable it's going to cost more money.
 

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My apologies, that obvious conclusion didn't appear obvious to you from your posts. There are plenty of stronger polymer guns. All one has to do is LOOK at the sub. The hinge area and catch are plastic. If the gun was aluminum it would be substantially stronger given good engineering. Of course it would be heavier and more expensive. The fact that the gun is hinged AND plastic limits the strength potential. For long term use under adverse conditions there are far better options. Accept the weapon for what it is. A light compact little carbine that is able to be carried discreetly. It is a compromise weapon, better than a handgun but not a battle rifle by ANY stretch.
You still have not addressed the pressure load from a +p and +p+ and what is has to do with the plastic. Again the pressure spike is in the chamber/bbl. And all parts are steel in the ejection process with the exception of the rear button/stop.

Not denying there are stronger polymer guns, and I don't understand why you are persistent in the statement. Maybe I should just take your word regarding this, but not in my nature.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
You still have not addressed the pressure load from a +p and +p+ and what is has to do with the plastic. Again the pressure spike is in the chamber/bbl. And all parts are steel in the ejection process with the exception of the rear button/stop.

Not denying there are stronger polymer guns, and I don't understand why you are persistent in the statement. Maybe I should just take your word regarding this, but not in my nature.
Kel-Tec replied to a question concerning the use of +P and +P+ ammo with the Sub 2000 Gen 2 9mm. Ericka Marchiano responded from Kel-Tec stating, "Kel-Tec does not recommend any use of +P or +P+ ammo in the Sub rifles". There must be a reason why Kel-Tec does not recommend the use of +P and +P+ ammo in the Sub rifles. I am following their recommendation. Why go against the recommendation of the manufacturer?
 

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You still have not addressed the pressure load from a +p and +p+ and what is has to do with the plastic. Again the pressure spike is in the chamber/bbl. And all parts are steel in the ejection process with the exception of the rear button/stop.

Not denying there are stronger polymer guns, and I don't understand why you are persistent in the statement. Maybe I should just take your word regarding this, but not in my nature.
Not my word, Kel Tecs word. The answer is already there. These guns are not designed to withstand the higher power rounds. They are blow back actions, the heavier recoil impulse can do a couple things batter the gun to pieces, plastic, very likely, or cause the auction to start opening prematurely with the possibility of case rupture. The 40 S @ w versions have examples of cracking when used with the heavier loading. This is not my opinion it's something that members here have experienced.
You want to use +P+ loads in your sub that's your decision. If the gun has a short life it is not Kel Tecs fault. They have made the operating parameters of the gun quite clear. The gun is intended to use standard pressure loads. Its not a flaw anymore than some light 38 snubs will not stand up to a steady diet of +p.
My position is not complicated. The sub 2000 was designed to fill a role. It does so very well. It is not however the strongest PCC design and will not tolerate use of plus P loads. If the need to use heavier loads is paramount then other weapons are available that do so. They cost more money and do not fold. Your priorities your choice.
 

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I don't know if hotter loads like +P+ would significantly shorten or damage my sub2k but it's a blowback carbine so the buffer weight and spring has to be chosen to work with a wide range of ammo, and KT has to cater to light/range loads. Hotter ammo in a lightly sprung/weighted blowback is also at a higher risk of OOB (out of battery).

I'm certain if you ask Ford if it's OK to add a supercharger to your Mustang they'll say no, so if you blow your motor it's on you. But people do it all the time without issue, but at the cost of a shorter life.

If you plan to run hotter ammo I'd recommend a heavier buffer and charge handle.

There's quite a few firearm makers that will approve +P but not +P+ as there's no SAAMI specs for +P+ I'm aware of. There's also surplus submachine gun ammo loaded HOT for UZIs that's labeled +P+.
 

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I'm certain if you ask Ford if it's OK to add a supercharger to your Mustang they'll say no, so if you blow your motor it's on you. But people do it all the time without issue, but at the cost of a shorter life.
Perfect example. You take an engine that is capable of lasting well over 250000 miles and wring the life out of it in less than 30000 for kicks......it's a matter of priorities.
 

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KelTec doesn't recommend +P ammo because their guns have a lifetime warranty. +P ammo beats up your gun. That gets expensive replacing all those guns and they probably don't want to because everyone is all "hurrr muh hot loads". I wouldn't think however that the Sub 2000 couldn't handle a 9mm+p load considering they make the Sub 2000 in a 40S&W variant, and that is already considered a high pressure round.
 

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In the current (2015) SAAMI Pressure Guide Z299.3, the 9mm Luger transducer pressure spec is 35,000 psi. The 9mm Luger +P pressure spec is 38,500.

Yet, there is no longer a spec for a 9mm Luger proof round. It is listed as obsolete, and the only 9mm Luger proof round is 9mm Luger +P, which is set at 52,000 minimum average to 55,500 maximum average.

So Kel-Tec is proofing the Sub 2000 with the 9mm Luger +P proof round, regardless of their recommended service ammunition.

FYI
 
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