K.T.O.G. "Store" Anyone?

Discussion in 'Feedback and Announcements' started by PshootR, Jun 3, 2009.

  1. PshootR

    PshootR Banned

    Apr 1, 2005
    I just had an idea for a K.T.O.G. "Store" to allow for the marketing of products manufactured by our members only.

    I know there is the "Trading Post", but that involves hunting for what we want, say a steel mag catch for a P-3AT to name just one item more or less as random.

    In thinking about the "Trading Post" it occurred to me that there are really two categories of products there.  First, personal items, guns, holsters, accessories etc. that members wish to sell or trade and secondly there are the items manufactured or at least acquired to sell to members in some quantity like "JFB Washers" for the P-3AT or aluminum triggers for the Sub-2000 or steel mag catches for the P-11.

    I was thinking that a "K.T.O.G. Store" could organize all the projects in the second group so that members could "shop" for their Kel-Tec needs without hunting out the individual vendors.

    I do not foresee that we could facilitate ordering through our "Store", rather a link to the seller's web site or his or her contact information would be provided.

    I think the Administration should create a set of rules and policies that vendors using our "Store" would have to agree to in advance, and that violation of said rules and policies would constitute grounds for having their products removed from the "Store". 25 posts would be required to list items for sale and maybe to enter the "Store" at all.

    I wonder what others think of this.
  2. shinejug

    shinejug Guest

    May 31, 2009
    Sounds great to me, except the 25 post to buy rule. I realize that this is the rule now for the trading post, and IMHO it sucks. I am not a big poster on any board that I am a member of, and feel that I am being forced to post in order to go to the trading post and purchase the things that I want, (metal trigger SUB2K). I do not post on boards unless I have something constructive to add, a question, or idea, I am not a big "look's great" kind of poster. I can understand 25 posts to sell, but do not see the purpose of it for buying. It would help those that are making and selling items for these guns if everyone no matter how many posts they had could purchase them or had access to the contact info. I am sure that there have been those that have said to heck with it when they found out the only way to get access to the info or item is to make 25 posts. Make it to where if someone "donates" $20 to KTOG they can skip the 25 post rule. I would pay it.

    With that said I accept the rules as they stand and will follow them and never bring up this subject again. Unless asked.

  3. burley

    burley Well-Known Member

    Nov 26, 2006
    I agree lets get it raised to at least 100 post and keep out the rift raft ;)
    Really we active members deserve to get to know ya before you get to trade with us. The trading post is not what this board is about , go to gunbroker if'n all ya want to do is buy/sell.
    I like the KTOG Store idea to separate the custom made parts from other items,might make finding those parts easier
  4. shinejug

    shinejug Guest

    May 31, 2009
    I do not want to just buy and sell, but at the same time I am not and will not be a big poster, I am not that type of person. If that makes me "rift raft", then so be it. There are some parts that the only place you can get them is through this site's trading post. At least I have not found them available anywhere else. If they were available on gunbroker I would have already purchased them, and kept reading the posts and adding posts when I had something constructive to add.

    A way for everyone to be able to have access to custom made parts benefits everyone. Sure go ahead and make it 100 posts and watch the custom parts dry up due to lack of sales from lack of access.
  5. PshootR

    PshootR Banned

    Apr 1, 2005
    I admit that requiring 25 posts to "Enter" the store seems kinda silly to me. As far as being able to post, and thereby sell items there goes it does make sense to me.
  6. mydixiwrecked00

    mydixiwrecked00 New Member

    Jul 25, 2008
    a store would be great. kt stuff gets lost fast in the trading post with all the other things in there. now for the 25 posts.....
    is it really THAT big of deal.. i personally agree that it should be higher... we all start out with one post and count down the posts til we can get into the full member areas. every ones done it.. its not that painful and im glad the rule exists, it goes by fast. we have spam already, imagine how much there would be if it was that easy to get in.
  7. burley

    burley Well-Known Member

    Nov 26, 2006
    I do not want to just buy and sell, but at the same time I am not and will not be a big poster, I am not that type of person. [/quote]
    Well from your profile , says ya post 4.5 a day. My average is 3.32 , so I'd say your are doing alright in the posting dept , stick around and you'll be passing me. At this rate you'l be in the counter and trading post in 5.5 days from sign up. Sorry but I don't see a problem here.... next.
  8. TxCajun

    TxCajun Administrator Staff Member Administrator Moderator Supporter

    Sep 7, 2004
    It ain't rocket science.  Here's an example:  Member John Doe posts something for sale.  The impulsive newbie, Mr. One-post-wonder, all excited about his new Kel-tec, thinks Man, it would sure be cool to have one of those". He drops in and says, "I'll take it".  Mr. One-post-wonder agrees to send a payment.  Member John Doe waits a week for the payment to show.  It doesn't.  He PMs Mr.  One-Post-Wonder asking what happened to the payment.  He gets no answer.  He waits a couple of days and still gets no answer.  He PMs again.  Mr. One-Post-Wonder has disappeared never to be seen again.  Meanwhile, Member John Doe has lost that sale and others as well as they went on and bought the item somewhere else.  Additionally, he did not get the money that perhaps he needed ASAP for some other purpose.  He has to repost the item, start all over, and hope that the next buyer is for real.  

    When buyers (and sellers) must have a few posts before participating, this gives the members some means by which to judge their character.  The odds that they will be around to complete the sale are much higher.  We didn't just fall off the turnip truck.  We do know what we are doing.  The rules in place here are the result of years of experience.  They are designed to make things work smoothly with as little intervention as possible.  Still, we have some problems even with the rules that are in place - most often they result from people who simply do not read them and comply.

    We are not Craig's List - nor do we strive to be that.  Our Trading Post is not some service that we provide for the benefit of the general public.  
     There are forums out there that require 50 and even 100 posts for full privileges and of course there are forums that have no classified section at all.  Probably the admin knows better than to suffer the headaches that can accompany commerce on the internet.

    Of course it seems silly to you.  Exactly how many times have you been complained to about a deal gone wrong.  How many hours of your life have you wasted exchanging PMs back and forth between a buyer and seller who have some problem.  For instance, a seller who never received funds that a buyer says he sent, or a buyer who never received the merchandise that a seller claims he sent, or the service purchaser who sent off a slide to be plated but got back the wrong slide, or the other party that got the wrong slide back while the provider claims that was not the case, or the buyer of a gun that arrived in a different condition than was intimated, or the buyer of a service that did not get it some 6 months later, or the purchaser of parts that 2 years later has never been compensated, or the person who bought a holster and never got it, or the purchaser of a mag who thought it was a factory mag but it was some no-name POS...  The list goes on and on and on.  There have been many such cases and many times I would have just as soon shut the Trading Post down as try to negotiate another settlement among people I don't know, and based on their behavior and communications, probably wouldn't like if I did.  Do you have any idea what it's like being everyone's free customer service and complaint department?  I think some folks take us for granted.  It must be very nice to drop in and use this forum with zero thought or responsibility for what it takes to make it run as seemlessly as we make it appear.   

    Those of you complaining about the rules have no clue.  And you think, heck, the admin/mod have no responsibility for deals gone wrong.  Well, that is certainly true but don't think for a minute that everyone shares that sentiment.  If someone feels they got screwed, we hear about it, trust me.  Do you have any clue as to how many scores of hours we spent trying to unravel and fix the Packer scandal?  The emails, PMs, letters, phone calls, registered mail...  No, I thought not.

    There are currently only a very small handful of such items made and sold by ktogers...  metal triggers, mag catches, forearms, holsters...  that's about it.  Furthermore, those sales are extremely limited.  If you think we are going to set up a separate forum for that, let alone a store... you have got to be kidding.  ;D

    Seriously, I realize that your suggestion is intended to improve the forum.  However, finding what you are looking for in the Trading Post is not much of a task.  Vendors could certainly help by bumping their posts when they fall off of page 1.  This is spelled out in the rules.  Oops, I forgot... no one reads those.  ;)
  9. adamsesq

    adamsesq New Member

    Dec 25, 2006
    Absolutely one of the best explanations that I have seen Tx. If someone can't understand that then let RJ's favorite phrase apply to them...

    THANK YOU for all you do here.

  10. TxCajun

    TxCajun Administrator Staff Member Administrator Moderator Supporter

    Sep 7, 2004
    Thanks Scott.  I realize that to the average member, our TP seems to run pretty smoothly.  However, I have long since lost count of the number of complaints I fielded or the times I have been asked to intervene in a problem.  It boils down to how much time I have to do that.  The rules are designed to make the place run itself.  They help, but it is still something of a chore.  Contrary to popular belief, I do have a day job and my time here is limited.  I do have to sleep sometime.  :)

    In spite of my cross-sounding wordy reply, I realize that I did not address this question/issue.  It has come up before:
    The answer is really quite simple.  If newbies can "Enter" the TP, they can very easily circumvent the rules prohibiting them from participating by simply PMing a seller.  Of course this immediately opens up the door to any and all of the issues I described in my previous reply.  In essence, it negates the rule.  Why have a rule than can so easily be side-stepped?  Thus you need 25 posts before you can even view the TP.  It is far from a perfect system, but experience has shown it to be better than no system.
  11. PshootR

    PshootR Banned

    Apr 1, 2005
    Good explanation!

    My purpose in suggesting a K.T.O.G. "Store" was really to try to stimulate the development and sale of serious products that would enhance the utility and value of our beloved Kel-Tecs. Items such as we can readily find for Glocks, 1911s and others. I would love to see a steady and dependable source of say, steel mag catches, aluminum triggers, aluminum mag followers, custom hammer and firing pin springs, custom sights that don't cost almost as much as the gun, maybe even specialty barrels in .32 NAA and .380 ACP or 9mm Mak.

    The 1911 and Glock have been taken far beyond their original form and function by the availability of aftermarket parts, but even with substantial sales Kel-Tecs are still held back by a lack of serious "goodies".

    A former member here, whose name can still be found among the top five posters, but is now banned for failing to deliver on products that members had already paid for, was allegedly working on some of the items I mentioned, and even on a .22 l.r. conversion to boot, if his claims are to be believed.

    I would just like to see a source of reliable, dependable, reasonably priced and readily available accessories to take our Kel-Tecs to the next level of perfection.

    Surely among our 14,168 members we have the talent, expertise and ingenuity to come up with some great ideas and put them into production and make some sales.

    Tex wrote:

    "There are currently only a very small handful of such items made and sold by ktogers...  metal triggers, mag catches, forearms, holsters...  that's about it.  Furthermore, those sales are extremely limited."

    I agree, that is what I was hoping to stimulate.
  12. shinejug

    shinejug Guest

    May 31, 2009
    I really do see the point of 25 posts. After reading all through the forums there are some people that when I do get my 25 posts I will not trade with due to the way they treat others and their opinion. It is not only for ya'll to get to know us, but for us to get to know ya'll, and for some I know all I need to.
  13. A simple solution to the "problem" of custom parts made by KTOGers being lost in the TP is for the seller to keep his item on page one. It is perfectly alright for sellers to bump their post back to page one after the thread gets pushed to page two.

    Another option is the search feature!

    I don't think it is broke, and therefore no need to fix anything.
  14. TxCajun

    TxCajun Administrator Staff Member Administrator Moderator Supporter

    Sep 7, 2004
    Your point is well taken. Indeed the 25 post requirement, although rather minimal, does offer some means (better than no means) for judging the character and/or reliability of a member before doing business with them. For some folks, it is more than enough, isn't it? ;D

    Overall however, this is a very fine group of humans. There are very few folks here, if any, that have been around for any length of time, with whom I would not trade due to issues of trust.
  15. molachi

    molachi Well-Known Member

    Jun 16, 2008
    Pensacola, Fl.
    Scott...You said it very well.
    Although I have not yet traded in the trading post I have done business with one of our members with absoutely great success.
    Again to Tx and ALL the mod's a big thanks for a hard job well done...

  16. Commie17

    Commie17 Guest

    Jul 22, 2009
    Im new and I really wish there wasnt that 25 post minimum
  17. haugrdr

    haugrdr Well-Known Member Supporter

    Jan 4, 2008
    Daytona Beach
    Out of hundreds and thousands of topics and threads...it should be easy to make 16 meaningful posts?

  18. trader_bob01

    trader_bob01 Member

    Jul 8, 2009
    I am new too. I thought I would never be able to post anything because, I am new. I don't have years of experience with Kel Tec products, I haven't modified any of my Kel Tec guns, I don't have any cool ideas on how to turn my SU-16 into a plasma-induced vortex canon, in short, I didn't think I could possibly add anything new to the forum, provide any insight in to Kel Tec products, or stimulate any conversations since I feel way over me head. I feel like there are people in here that build weapons from paper mache and toothpaste, and I can't break down my weapons without losing springs and pins. I resigned myself to the notion that I would just poke around in here, learn from others successes and failures, and suffer from nirvanic visions of the Trading Post and the Counter. And then it happened. I stumbled upon a thread that had to do with pocket clips for the Kel Tec P3AT. Holy cow! I could actually provide new information! Nobody on that thread had any experience with the clip I had. I made a post, then I learned how to post pictures and did that too. Now I only had 23 posts to go. Then I found other areas I could give my input. I don't see myself accessing the Trading Post or Counter anytime soon, but that was not why I came here originally anyway, it was to learn about getting the most out of my Kel Tecs. To learn from others and possibly use those ideas myself, and you have access to all those areas. Trading Post and Counter, eh, I'll get there some day. The rule may seem stupid or arbitrary to some, and they don't have to like it, but the bottom line is that it is the rule, and they can choose not to participate and go elsewhere if they don't like the rules.  

    Oh yeah, and about the store. Since I don't have access to it and the only things I know are what was explained in this thread, I was wondering. Is there any kind of relationship with Kel-Tec itself? If people brought their ideas to Kel-Tec and worked with their engineers, maybe Kel-Tec would sponsor or even produce more after market products.
  19. old300

    old300 New Member

    Jul 23, 2009
    I think the 25 post rules weeds out the un-verified or BS buyers and sellers, however I am not much of a poster and more of a reader. I have a forum for each sport/hobby I participate in and only post 50-100 per year on each one.

    A Motorcycle forum I frequent has an option to sponsor the site through paypal for $10 and access the classifieds and other member only areas.

    The Mag catch etc. should be offered for sale in an easy to find area. I think the people making these specialized products deserve to be able to sell more quantity if they chose. Newbies are a huge market for these folks.

    On another note, I use this forum and others primarily to find information availiable nowhere else. The classified section has alot to do with this. These specialized products are made by KTOG members for Kel-tecs. There is no-where else to get these items. And that is one HUGE feature of being a part of this forum.

    Maybe there should be a VENDORS AREA which allows trusted sellers/manufacturers to offer their products for sale seperate from the trading post.

    Thanks for listening.
  20. goodbrewing

    goodbrewing Active Member

    Oct 2, 2008
    With all the threads about targets, flashlights, range bags, holsters and other things in accessories I'm sure you can find something to talk about. There are also threads asking for pics of your guns. Post a picture and tell us how well your gun performs at the range. Likes and dislikes about it. Jump into the goes local area and find a shooting partner or event near you. You don't need to be an expert on anything. Much here is opinion. Just please do a search before starting a thread that has been done 10 times already.
    If all you want to do is buy products than maybe gun broker or 1 of the other sale sites are what you are looking for. This is a great information site and the trading post and counter are just bonuses. I think the 25 post rule along with the hard work of some great moderators and admin keep this site running smooth and spam free.
    Jump in and look around you will find something to talk about. We have all been there and we made it past the 25 posts. You will too if you try.