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Discussion in 'KSG Bullpup Shotgun' started by Yashax, Apr 2, 2018.
i can’t find good comparison data to see which one deals best with recoil.
Thanks in advance
There are two elements of recoil in the KSG. One is the reaction of the shot being propelled down the barrel. Neither of those products will help with that. Once the shot leaves the barrel, that part is over. The other is from the rocket nozzle effect of the gasses exiting the barrel behind the shot. Calculation of the rocket nozzle effect takes into account the amount of gas, its velocity, its pressure and the diameter of the nozzle. Just know that muzzle brakes are far less effective on shotguns than on rifles.
I would love to get your thought on this review that I found on different muzzle breaks for shotguns, including the V6.
I know the US Army calculated the "rocket nozzle" effect of a .30-06 in a Springfield '03 rifle to be about 40 percent of the total recoil impulse. Velocity of the expelled gasses have a lot to do with it - since the "nozzle" effect is subject to the square of the velocity.
Another interesting tid-bit is that the velocity of the expelled gasses exceeds that of the expelled bullet (and perhaps shot, in the case of a shotgun).
I would love to hear others replied, especially if they tried both products.
I'm not trying to detract you in your decision. Just sayin' go in with both eyes open.
I've seen outrageous "muzzle brakes" that were mostly just dead weight, but sho' nuff, adding a pound to the end of your barrel will make the "kick" less, regardless of the porting of the device.
We had one guy at the range, who "invented" a brake he called the "Austrailicomp" (he was an Aussie). The operating "principle" was from a vented barrel, where the vent was placed to downward. Mounted onto the frame of the pistol was a "deflector" that the gasses were supposed to "push on" in order to reduce flip and recoil. Of course, the downward venting was all that did any work, and it did so to a negative degree. To wit: If you hold a spraying garden hose out toward your yard, does the thrust on your hand, holding the hose, increase when you spray against a fence? No. But, the damn thing weighed a ton, and by crackee, folks swore that it worked. He was soon out of business.
I've shot "Mag-Na-Port"ed shotguns. I'm no fan of the shape of the Ruger Red Label stock. The ported Red Label did seem a little easier to shoot than my own Red Label, but not to the degree that I'd send my barrel off for the "fix". And that was with #7-1/2s and #8 trap loads.
Not that it would work with a KSG, but those mercury filled cylinders that you'd have put into wood stocks did work pretty well, from controlled use of weight - but again - it was weight, not redirection of gas, that did the trick.
The Hitech alum rail and VFG assembly weighs close to a pound and goes very near the nose, so good weight add if you go that direction.
Interesting head-to-head. Wish they had done a control with an 8-ounce weight on the end of the barrel.
Also the V6 kills muzzle rise so much, if you look at the slow-motion, you can see it actually flex the barrel downward. Fortunately the KSG has a very short barrel!
The other thing is the percentage of the recoil that comes from the acceleration of the shot becomes far more of a factor the heavier the load (which the brake can't do anything about).
The difference between the brakes shooting 1-ounce slugs would have probably been negligible.... that's when you really need a 'brake' from recoil.
I have the Hi-Tech's Howitzer on my KSG, and it is worth every penny. The recoil reduction might not quite be 70%, but it's enough that it completely eliminates the need for a LimbSaver.
Without a LimbSaver or the Howitzer, after 50 rounds my shoulder would be bruised. The LimbSaver helped a ton, but definitely room for improvement. With the Howtizer, however, the recoil is ridiculously low, so much so that I couldn't tell the difference between having a LimbSaver on or off. I'd compare the recoil more to that of an AK-47 than even a shotgun.
If you were to ever only buy one upgrade for the KSG, the Howitzer would be it (apart from a replacement lower rail, for safety reasons).
I'm surprised there aren't more people chiming in about this thing, because it is truly incredible.
Glad to hear this Hans. I'm starting to look at "upgrades" so that I can shoot my KSG more.
Limbsaver s/m size would be a great upgrade. With the Howitzer70 I just noticed muzzle flash more that when I didn't have it.
I hate to pee in the Wheaties, but reduction of recoil by 70 percent, on a 12gauge shotgun, with the use of a muzzle brake, resorts to physics only found in The Twilight Zone.
The percentage of recoil that is generated by the expulsion of gas with a 12 gauge is far lower than a (center fire) rifle, and those are in the 40ish percent range. Since brakes don't do a thing for recoil created by solid mass exiting the muzzle, and only work on expelled gasses, you can't get lower recoil than that created by the gas in the first place.
But, I have a non-vented recoil reduction system that is guaranteed to cut recoil by half. Its a 9lb lead weight strapped to the gun.....
Newton's third is still a law. Some of the 3" magnum loads have a huge 'acceleration of mass' quotient. +1 on the limbsaver. Let the gun move instead of you.
I know it works because the movement of mine beat a light into submission with just a few boxes of shells.
Still shopping for a new light that can take the hammering...
Now stopping muzzle-climb, brakes are definitely effective for that. Probably a huge factor in "perceived recoil".
I agree that it doesn't reduce the recoil by 70%. Maybe 30'sh percent would be the right ballpark. Howitzer70 vs Limbsave...... I will take home the Limbsaver.
You don't have to believe me, but the Howitzer does make a significant difference in felt recoil. I just got back from the range and put 15 slugs through without any pain. Also put a few dozen buckshot and birdshot through.
The recoil is there, of course, but it's far from painful, and for me eliminates the need for a LimbSaver entirely, no matter what load. At the very LEAST, the Howitzer takes the KSG's recoil from unpleasant to acceptable, on just about anyone's shoulder, under any load.
You can doubt all you want, reciting how it's impossible with the physics at play, but I can tell you with first-hand experience, that the Howitzer DOES work, and is indeed a worthwhile upgrade.
I keep going back and forth about getting the Howitzer. I believe it reduces felt recoil.
I don’t get to shoot that often and that would pay for a lot of ammo.
Focusing on the "replacement lower rail, for safety reasons" part of this quote. I'm looking into buying a KSG and doing as much research as I can. SO can you explain the need to replace lower rail for safety reasons?
Some guy had his vertical grip break off his lower rail and blew his hand off. Read here https://www.thegunwriter.com/19139/another-devastating-kel-tec-ksg-injury/
I've also read that he was using an already-broken grip, but better safe than sorry IMO.
What rail would you recommend to replace the stock one with? My first attachments I believe are gonna be a hand stop, switch extender, and magpul foregrip
I use the extended lower rail by Hi-Tech Custom Concepts http://www.hitechcc.com/product/HTC-107X.html
They also have a non-extended rail, both the same price. I like having the extra inch, and also think it looks better aesthetically on my KSG, but that's because I have the Howitzer muzzle break sticking out.
Quality seems top-notch to me. No issues whatsoever adding attachments. I've been very happy with it.