Hornady Critical defense MANY FTF

Discussion in 'P-3AT' started by Eric_in_Nola, Dec 16, 2009.

  1. Eric_in_Nola

    Eric_in_Nola Well-Known Member

    Sep 22, 2006
    Picked up 3 boxes last week.

    Went to the range on the way back from work and test fired this stuff.

    First off I fired both of my mags of carry ammo ( Hornady T.A.P.) out of my P3AT-  drew and fired  reload and fired - 100% function.

    Loaded the critical defense and BAD things happened-  out of one box I got 5 FTF- primer dented with good strike- identical to the other 20 that fired,  box 2  had 9 FTF- same deal all primers dented  no difference between b/t fired and FTF.

    LOT NUMBER 3090850

    Had enough called it a day.

    P3AT checked out after trip- nothing wrong with it- Now loaded with T.A.P.  Pizzed off call to Hornady to come.
  2. billjohnso20

    billjohnso20 Well-Known Member

    Dec 7, 2008
    I've shot a box of the stuff and had no problems. I'm wondering what's going on since I'm hearing of this more and more. One of my buddies had one fail to fire in his P3AT too. I always carry more than one gun but I also don't want to ever be in the position to have to draw the other gun.

  3. Picatinny_Pete

    Picatinny_Pete New Member

    Sep 2, 2009

    Sounds like a primer sensitivity issue to me. I reload using Winchester primers and have not had any FTF with them, but started having problems after I changed to CCI primers in my P3AT. Switching back solved the problem. I like the Hornady Critical Defense in My PF-9, but have not had any FTF in it with it in 9MM Luger.

    Best Regards
  4. molachi

    molachi Well-Known Member

    Jun 16, 2008
    Pensacola, Fl.
    I've gone through a box of the Critical Defense with no problems. Maybe just one of the types your gun doesn't like??

  5. oldgranpa

    oldgranpa New Member

    Sep 23, 2004
  6. Bobo

    Bobo Well-Known Member Supporter

    Jun 13, 2005
  7. oldgranpa

    oldgranpa New Member

    Sep 23, 2004
    After reading Teddy's blog again, it seems he is implying that Berdan primers may have been used to load cartridges intended for Boxer primers. He doesn't confirm that.

    So, how about this......Those of you that have actual Hornady Critical Defense ammo that gave FTFire, could you somehow cut some of those cases open??
    Great care would be needed. If the round is still 'live', first you would need to pull the bullet and empty the powder. With a bright light you could look in there and see if there's one hole or two in the primer area.
    But what we really need is confirmation on the primer itself. Try to use a spent case that you had to fire twice or more to get it to shoot. Then you can cut it open safely with a Dremel tool if you have one.

    If indeed Berdan primers were used in 'one hole' cases that would explain why they fail to fire. Cases for Berdan primers (with 2 holes) have the 'anvil' built into the case. 'One hole' cases for Boxer primers have no anvil, the anvil is part of the Boxer primer.

    Is such a mistake possible? Apparantly Hornady isn't telling and hasn't admitted anything is wrong. Instead, they blame the pistol being used as faulty.
    Someone is going to get hurt. A responsible company would have already recalled the faulty ammo.

  8. Rubb

    Rubb Well-Known Member

    Jun 19, 2006
    I told my bro in law about this a few weeks ago, HCD is loaded in his Ruger P89.
    The Ruger has always gone bang going on 15 years so he did not test the HCD.
    I'm giving him some other JHP's to load until he tests it.
    I'd have very little faith in HCD even after testing it ok at this point :-/
  9. zuma

    zuma Member

    Dec 6, 2009
    It suks.. Because we have to buy what we can. Not only do we waist money but run the risk of reliability. Normally you practice with the ammo you will carry, at least enough to know it is matched to your gun, especially this gun which is picky. But, we can't always get the same ammo due to the availability. I have had good success with the Mag HPs. I have heard opposite issues with opposit ammo on this site. What i have good success does not work with other's p3ATs.


  10. RavenTai

    RavenTai Member

    Apr 17, 2009
    Went to the range today, put about 200 rounds through my P3AT, mostly various kinds of "cheap" ball ammo but at the end did try a mag each of the defense ammo I have on hand, Remington golden saber, Federal hydrashock, Winchester ranger T series, and Hornady critical defense, gun ran perfectly all day except for the critical defense, of 6 fired one went click but no bang, ejected the round and it appears to have a good solid primer hit. same lot number as the original poster: 3090850,  

    spooky part is these particular rounds had been carrying in my P3AT and after few months or so swapped em out for fresh rounds, marking these for disposal, so for a few months I was carrying around a dud  :eek:

    I may overlook that kind of problem on cheap range ammo but it is unacceptable on very expensive boutique ammo marketed for self defense.

    I did mark the primers of these carried rounds with nail polish, I guess that theoretically could have some effect thin layer of varnish making a hard primer just a bit harder but given other reports I don't think that is the cause,

    Just got done cleaning and loaded it with the golden sabres, they had noticeably more recoil, perhaps from the slightly heavier 102 grain bullet? hopefully Newton is right and it is an indication of what kind of energy is on the other end. first Remington ammo product I was pleased with.  
  11. rcmodel

    rcmodel New Member

    Feb 6, 2005
    Eastern Kansas
    I agree with oldgranpa.

    Somebody with that lot number &  mis-fires needs to knock the primer out of a fired case with a loading die, 1/16" punch, or even a nail.
    See if there is an anvil in the primer?

    A central flash hole in the case and no anvil in the fired primer indicates they used Berdan primers in Boxer cases.

    Inquiring minds want to know??

  12. RavenTai

    RavenTai Member

    Apr 17, 2009
    I have a RCBS bullet puller (impulse type) but my primer punch is in storage, not sure I am too keen on pressing out a (potentially) live primer anyway,

    wearing safety glasses, could I file through the case an into the primer to make a cross section?  how likely is that to set off the primer?

    reading old grandpa's link and the pages it links to it appears that this problem is not limited to one batch of .380, problems have been appearing in many different calibers of Hornady critical defense.

    EDIT: I see what you are saying, work on a spent case from one of the rounds that fired, unfortunately i did not save any of the brass from that range session, have 20 rounds left from that box, one with a struck primer next range trip will save the brass.
  13. rcmodel

    rcmodel New Member

    Feb 6, 2005
    Eastern Kansas
    Filing into a live primer is about 1,000 times more dangerous then de-priming it with a loading die.

    There is no danger in doing that.

    All we need to know is, if the primer has an anvil in it or not?

    Take one that mis-fired, and later fired the second try?

    And knock the spent primer out with a small punch or something.

    Or, pull the bullet with your bullet puller and fire the primer in you gun, then file away.

  14. RavenTai

    RavenTai Member

    Apr 17, 2009
    Ok pulled the bullet, powder present and looks normal, they don't put much of it in a .380 do they?

    the flash hole is pretty big and i can see that an anvil is present, so it is a boxer primer, just apparently not a good one.

    oh and as others observed no sealant around the case mouth or primer, just the finger nail polish I applied which now that i pulled a bullet at least at the case mouth end did not fill the groves in the cannelure , from previous threads some think it it may not be needed but in hot humid Florida I prefer it had sealant to keep condensation out of the powder.
  15. zuma

    zuma Member

    Dec 6, 2009
    Based on my experience the KelTec is more sensitive to certain primers and will FTF or penetrate some. I just try to test what ever i carry with and thats the way it is. I have had bad experience with several off brand foreign ammo. I carry with Magtech JHP. Maybe we need to approach this differently and reccomend what we are successfull with as an approved list based on experience. I know that we buy what we can get our hands on making it difficult to be choosers and not beggers....

  16. RavenTai

    RavenTai Member

    Apr 17, 2009
    That's disconcerting, I had written this off as an ammo issue, easy enough to fix by simply changing ammo. this is the first FTF I have experienced in my P3at,   I have tried a lot of brands and so far everything else has worked just fine

    is this intolerance of tough primers common amongst many p3's or only a few? is there a fix? when I push my firing it seams to protrude way more than enough, don't think its a reach issue, not sure about power though.

    I have never seen Hornady branded primers so I assume they do not produce their own, primers became rare right after the election, just about when this ammo came out, in a scramble to get this ammo out did Horany  source poor primers?

    I agree a carry gun should be thoroughly tested with the intended carry ammo but that has been a difficult proposition for the last year, fortunately it seams to be getting better.
  17. darkfiber1010

    darkfiber1010 New Member

    Apr 5, 2009
    Just curious what colors were the primers?

    I was following another thread over at ar15.com about the same subject. I havn't read the thread in a while, but basically from what I remember, a lot of the FTFs were due to some bad primers that Hornady used. These were nickel in color like the case. The newer lots have brass colored primers. Here's the link http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=5&f=20&t=82191

    For what its worth, I've gone through 75 rounds of CD in my PF9 no issues. All had brass colored primers
  18. RavenTai

    RavenTai Member

    Apr 17, 2009
    the primers on this bad batch are brass colored,

    read that thread and the other linked at the end, of the failures that have pictures the are all brass colored,
  19. chihuahuatn

    chihuahuatn Member

    Aug 31, 2008