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Discussion in 'P-3AT' started by heavyvino, Jan 14, 2009.
Dose anyone practice shooting from the hip, as if you just pulled out of your front pocket.
I practice "point" shooting. Almost the same. I point my pistol without using sights, and try to hit the target. When I do this type of practice, I raise my pistol to almost shoulder hight, point and shoot. I never tried it from the hip, tho.
For pocket carry and close quarters encounters, learning to fire from retention is a great skill to learn and practice. For the most part I always have atleast my P-3at, or more commonly my Pf-9 in my pocket, even if I have my G19 on my hip.
Here is your given scenario that i've had happen to me. Walking through a walmart parking lot at night, a guy comes up to you asking for something, gets within 5-6 feet and you finally figure out he is asking for some change, or his car broke down, etc. Now he could be innocently looking for some money or help, or he could be setting you up, either way it is a definite reason to go to atleast condition orange. If it is an innocent encounter everyone walks away unknowning that you could defend yourself, if he tries anything you can very quickly engage the threat.
What I like about pocket carry is that you can easily, and without raising suspicion, have a full grip on your gun and be ready to draw and fire on a moments notice.
The keys to firing from retention is your natural pointing ability, range to the target, and handgun grip orientation.
Natural pointing ability:
For most people you can look at an object and point at it with decent accuracy, even without bringing your finger up to your eye. This is very important in your point shooting type techniques, and critical in firing from retention.
Range to the target:
Primarily you are looking to use this in a very close encounter under 5-6ft. It is not hard to make good COM hits at this distance from the hip position. One thing to remember is that in most cases your round will hit slightly to your strong side of the target due to the gun being directly at your side, you can adjust your stance as needed to counter this.
Handgun grip orientation:
This is especially critical of those with autoloaders, you do not want the slide to recoil into your body and either hurt you, or cause a stoppage. When drawing from retention is is best to bring the gun straight up out of the holster, rotate the gun 90 degrees forward and then tilt the gun to the outside of your body. This will clear your body from the side, gives a very strong body support, and also keeps casings from coming up and hitting you in the face. The goal is to keep the gun very close to your side in a strong retention position but not allow anything to hinder the gun's operation.
With some practice it is possible to have a very fast time from getting the gun out of the pocket and the first shot fired. It also allows your weak hand to be free to fend off an attack or other purpose. The other benifit is that you are keeping the gun very close to you so that an attacker at that distance does not have the ability to just grab it from you easily.
I think that for most of us that carry concealed that chances are if ever having to defend ourselves is going to be a very close quarters confrontation where getting a good stance and firing position is not possible. Definitely a skill I like to have in my bag of tricks.
It is harder than I though, I guess I will practice this. How much time should I spend on it.
I am a new shooter, but yes I practice this. I have tried practicing for several different close quarters "attacks" so to get it ground into my memory. I think it is like playing golf. "Muscle memory" (what we used to call it in golf) gives you a definite edge.
Close quaters attack is new to me. What sort of things should I pratice?
I regularly shoot a couple mags from retention whenever I'm shooting my Glocks but I have to admit I haven't tried it with my P3AT. :-[
I think the biggest potential problem might be the increased probability that you will "limp wrist" the gun from that position. I believe you should practice one hand shooting more than with two hands and put in a great deal of that one hand practice from positions such as the hip in order to see if it will reliably work for you.
Most of the people I have taught found it necessary to raise the gun at least enough so that the forearm is parallel to the ground in order to insure good bullet placement and reliable function with a locked wrist.
At such close quarters you should also practice lateral movement as you draw and shoot since even a good hit may not immediately disable an attacker and you want to move out of the direct line of attack since even a dying man can still kill you.
I believe this a great training tatic. Have done with my Glock and Tuarus revolver, but never the kel-Tec. Sounds like a good excuse for some range time!
I start a a few of my double taps every range session practicing firing the first of the two from the hip and the second while extending and staying on target. Believe it or not, the second is usually the better shot of the two, but I can easily keep both on silhouette 7 yards and in. I am glad to know I am not the only one. ;D
And these are the 2 of the 3 most important SD shooting techniques you should master.
Quarter Hip or more commonly called Low Retention .. approx range to 5-6 ft.
Half Hip -- elbow is typically jammed into the side and gun is near midline of body pointed forward wrist articulated. Range to approx 12-15 ft. My first signature book is superb EXCEPT for the incorrect drawing of this position.
If you are serious about this and you should be ... Do no try to learn this on your own -- save time and ammo and search the following forum .... the moderator calls his slightly 'unique' techniques Quick Kill.... they are very good.
Another gun-hip technique is called The Zipper which is a quicker and interesting variation of Low Retention....I love it.
I cannot find any referance to zipper there. I searched and came up with 2 pages of hits. Didn't have time to read them all.
I do this as part of a LE qualification. We actually call it bent elbow shooting, lock your elbow into your hip, and limp wristing shouldn't be a problem. It is really only useful at about 1.5 to 2 yards, so getting shots on target shouldn't be a problem. Anything further than that you'll want point shoulder shooting. Worth practicing since you are just as likely to get in to a close shooting, especially with this pistol.
if u have a laser, I have found that hip shooting with one hand punches holes right thru those red dots better than any other stance or holding with 2 hands. Its weird, but good to know.
The zipper is routinely taught by some of the better armed close quarters combat classes.
In close quarters when speed is critical is where it shines ... I'll summarize.
First you should probably be decent in retention / half hip shooting because
The Zipper is a little more advanced than retention and builds on it.
The Zipper is executed from the hip similar to Low Retention .... except that firing commences as the barrel roughly aligns with the target's crotch and rapid fire is continued roughly on center line as the handgun point is smoothly and quickly moved toward the head. 4-5 shots are typical for me. (In reality you shoot the sucker into the ground ... another story there tho'.) Stitch the bg from knuts to knoggin. Clear leather, get the nozzle pointed above the ground a little and hose him to the head on the body centerline as best you can.
Part of the dramatic advantage of the Zipper is that the Bad Guy's got 'incoming' a couple of ten's quicker than normal to deal with .... the dreadful reality of incoming fire cannot be over estimated ... esp on a scumbag.
Another advantage for you (me anyway) is that it helps get to the aggressive physical and mind set required in real CQ SD ... shoot thru and dominate a close quarters perp ... my goal, my mission is to zip him quick and hard and with effect.
A skill that really helps is to be able to put rounds quickly approx where you are looking . A slowly developed skill but quickly executed.
Run &/or hide in cover first tho' if that's more reasonable ... the Zipper is for CQC where you MUST stand and deliver and you might be a little behind the curve.
All this is really worth learning but start with low retention and half hip ... the skill there pays off in performance there and with the Zipper later.
Another 'alleged' advantage of the zipper is that it puts rounds in several different organs of the body which is supposed to shut it down more quickly than say 3 in the lungs v one in the gut+ +lungs + head. Whatever!
I also commonly use 2 other non hip point shooting techniques 3/4 point and full point .. about 12 to 35 ft with these.
Edit -- I am not an instructor so the description above is my feeble attempt to express it.
Lasers -- I love to shoot our J Frame with one ... very very accurate close to distant, good in very low light and good for teaching trigger control and certain timed draw-fire exercises, confiring point shoot POA prolly more BUT Since the eyes must acquire the dot on target my experience indicates they're a tad slower for practical SD shooting. Most folks do not look at the sights during SD, doubt many more would look for the dot.
Lasers are also great fro shooting from awkward positions.
T hanks for that discription, it helped.
I just remembered that the technique taught during the 60's-70's called 'Speed Rock' achieves the about the same effect as the Zipper.
I shoot just lightly better with Speed Rock but it is unnatural for me compared to the zipper, I am less balanced. I also think that once committed to the Speed Rock move it might be more difficult to transition.
Check U tube for some of this stuff --- btw the famous shots by Tom Cruise on 2 bad guys in the movie where he was a hitman ... first shots on the first dude were what I and some call half hip(gun about a foot in front of his belly button), shots on the last guy were 3/4 hip (gun about 12-18 inches below eye line), Anyway that's how I remember it.
Edit - the movie is Collateral ... decent movie too.
Here's the scene from 'Collateral'
Ya gotta practice right but you too could do this and the Zipper.... the draw is fantastic...and may be bogus.
I practice this every month on 2 and 3 targets at various angles and distances up to about 15 ft.
Tommy studied this for a month or so with a pro .... assume it is near to or actual speed but it may not be... haven't timed it.
One of the things not appreciated by beginner SD shooters is how quick and fluid this can be ... movement, transitions to other targets, transitions to other aiming techniques etc.
On a regular basis, I run what was described above as the ZIPPER drill. I never heard it called anything but a close quarters drill, but it is basically thwe zipper. I usually run it with my G27.
I start with weak hand on the target holder, draw, and shoot from the hip. Start low and work up as I move backwards, All of the shoots are point/instinct shooting except that the last couple are AIMED at the head.
I rarely wear my 3AT in my pocket or on my hip, but rather in a 5:11 holster in a 5:11 shirt.
Below is a link to a recent report of a similar run.
After much practice and good instruction, I can place all of my shoots where they count, and I can put them there VERY QUICKLY.